2017 v6 P0302...

[Parz1val]

Hello there, I am currently trying to diagnose this issue P0302 Misfire on Cylinder 2. I initially replaced the plugs, then reset the ECU. The car ran great for about 50 miles and the code returned. I then replaced the coil pack and once again reset the ECU, worked great for around 50 miles and returned again. When the code re-emerges the idle suffers, roughness, all the normal things that happen from a a misfire.

  I plan on digging into testing the injector but I am wondering what the Pros have to say? I see plenty of articles of faulty valves potentially but all those seem to be related to earlier models and has been corrected since? Any insite/help would be greatly appreciated as we are all going through difficult times and I cannot afford to take the vehicle to a dealership at the moment... I am competent in pulling the head and doing the valve job if it comes down to it, just looking for other alternatives before I go that far... Thanks again for any help you may provide.

 

Edit, not sure if it needs said, but this is a v6 AWD model.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Parz1val

[John/Horace]

Welcome to the forum. How many miles on vehicle?

 

I would consider crank sensor before going after injector. They aren’t expensive, are a wear part and I am told can cause cyclinder misfire.

 

Did you replace the oring seals in the lower intake manifold when you changed plugs, another possible cause for cyclinder misfire.

 

What brand of plug was installed.  I used NGK laser cut iredium on my 3.6 last year, and a OEM lower intake seal set.

 

Injectors in my experience seldom wear out; quick and dirty test is screw driver on top of injector and you should hear clicking as it fires. Node light on harness shows signal to fire coming from ecm to harness plug.

Edited July 7, 2020 by John/Horace

[Parz1val]

Thanks for the welcome and the advice! I initially replaced just the plugs. They are an ngk iridium plugs that I researched online for this specific engine. I can get the exact model if needed. I did not replace the orange/red gasket between the upper and lower intake initially. I did however replace it when I went back in to replace the coilpack.

There is 82k on the motor and has not been any other hiccups....yet.

On the crank sensor, I have never had a problem with one before so I am unfamiliar with the symptoms. Is it possible for a crank sensor to just cause a fault on one cylinder? Thanks again for your help.

[John/Horace]

Oem plug very pricy, NGK irredium is fine I’ve put 20k on mine with no issue. Mopar I think is Champion brand, not my favourite.

 

I have heard of crank sensor causing a cyclinder misfire cars before, not very common. They are a wear item that can eventually leave you stranded. Fairly easy to change and not a pricy part. I hate just throwing parts at a car, but when the part is cheaper than any mechanic diagnostic I sometimes give in. Also easier than musical coils.

 

New coil pack could be a dud. It’s a hazzle  but you could move it to another cyclinder and see if code switches to other cyclinder.

With the intake removed you could also remove plug and check compression on cyclinder #2 to rule out that remote possibility. Want to minimize removing that awkward plastic intake manifold. Pull fuel pump relay, cold engine will be lower psi but will indicate drastic deficiency.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by John/Horace

[Parz1val]

Thanks a bunch, I will run a compression test in the morning and swap coils around as well. I THINK I already tried that but I'm not 100% sure. It was a few weeks ago and I have a terrible memory. If those check out I will do a little research on at least testing the resistance on the injector. Is there a similar test I can do with the crank sensor that you know of? Or should I just replace it if everything else checks out?

[John/Horace]

Can’t really test crank sensor with a regular meter. Normally you get a cps code but sometimes it can drop signal output and vehicle will stall without any stored code at all. Similarly incorrect codes like a cyclinder misfire can sometimes be created. Low probability occurrence.

 

 

[Parz1val]

I had to take a break on the vehicle over the weekend to take care of some other things. I am back to work on it but am having a heck of a time locating the location of the crank sensor. I have been scouring the internet and I only come across older models, 2008 to 2014 or so, and those that I do find are in other Chrysler models, jeeps, etc. Following all these have not helped me locate the sensor on my model. Any insite here? I have looked under the vehicle, behind the oilpan up on the block, I have tried "feeling" for it from the top as suggested in one of the vidoes. Still nothing. Thanks again for the help!

[John/Horace]

It is not in the open. You have to remove a small metal heat shield to get at the sensor, awkward.

How was compression? New coil or plug could be faulty. Pain to swap out however.
 

 

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwihp4_E-8rqAhUCbc0KHaA2AiYQtwIwCXoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHj3feemEwAg&usg=AOvVaw30TzL4FbhCjRgZTvmp03KE

 

[John/Horace]

Passenger side from underneath, just above exhaust pipe.

 

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DltiTOHLlUAc&psig=AOvVaw01GXqkMg1AJERocFkQ2b2N&ust=1594757947658000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8Qhq8BahcKEwjgiPi6hsvqAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQEw

[Parz1val]

Thanks again John, I have been through those videos already and unfortunately mine is not in either of those places. I will attach some photos. I think I may have found it, more hidden between the block and front axle connections. Will see. The second picture you can slightly see what looks like a 10mm bolt with what looks like the same connector layout as the new one.

Coil packs and plugs were moved around, problem persisted with cylinder 2. Compression check passed with flying colors.

 

[Parz1val]

Well, looking at it a little more it appears that I am on the right track. The location is correct but my transmission covers more of the area. Probably a transmission change between the years, maybe it's because mine is a cvt trans. I'm trying to find a way to get a wrench in there but I have almost no room. I don't think I will have enough room to pull the sensor out. Will see ...

[Parz1val]

Oh joy. Just stumbled upon this:

 

The Crankshaft Position Sensor is in the rear of the engine block near the transmission.

If vehicle is All Wheel Drive the Power Transfer Unit must be removed, (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/POWER TRANSFER UNIT - REMOVAL).

1. Disconnect the negative battery cable.
2. Raise vehicle and support.
3. Remove heat shield retaining bolt.
4. Remove heat shield.
5. Unlock and disconnect the electrical connector to the crankshaft position sensor.
6. Remove the crankshaft position sensor bolt.
7. Remove the sensor.

[John/Horace]

Journey never had a cvt either a 4 speed with 2.4, or a 6 speed Chrysler transmission with 3.6.

 

The caliber and patriot had a cvt but not journey.

 

I haven’t changed my cps yet, but I have a new one on hand. Mine is awd as well. If intake is off to do rear plugs I think access would be better.

Changing oil on power transfer unit is awkward enough, removal would be nasty. 
I hope it can stay in place.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by John/Horace

[Parz1val]

I dont know why I was stuck thinking it was a CVT, maybe I had the old nissan that was traded in on this vehicle on the mind. 2012 nissan pain in the *** transmission issues. You are correct, I researched the Chrysler 62TE and its been in use for quite some time it seems. I'm stopping for the evening and I am going to contact the local Chrysler dealership in the morning in hopes that there is some kind of coverage that this might fall under. I dont think it will be successful but I will try anyway. In the meantime I am going to try to find more info on the combo of AWD/6 Speed/3.6.

 Im all for trying to get to it an easier way but it is looking like the T case is in the way. It is definitely the correct sensor, and it is in the same spot as the 2012 Caravan video but he doesn't have a T case there. I am in contact with the Caravan owner from the vid, Justin. He is lending a hand in figuring out the easiest way to get this done. If I have to go down that route I will snap plenty of pictures and try my best at a guide for others with the same combo.

I was able to get my phone down in there and snapped these pictures. You can see the sensor way down there. The gap between the block and the t-case is only about an inch wide. I can probably unbolt it, but there won't be enough wiggle room to get the sensor out. Will see tomorrow...

Edited July 13, 2020 by Parz1val
added a couple pictures of t-case/sensor area

[John/Horace]

Wow that’s tight. There are medical looking like tong pliers that one poster used on utube to change out sensor.

(Harbour Freight spark plug pliers look similar ) With back part of air intake removed it will be easier. Good opportunity to change power transfer case oil while it’s apart. Vent line can be used to pump in the 0.8 litre of 75w90; drain plug is underneath. It’s due to be changed now.

 

I have changed cps on several other suv vehicles. Normally they pop out with some wiggling. One 10mm hold down bolt.
 

It’s possible the misfire is caused by something else and cps is ok. Was car ever in an accident, are you the original owner ?Plastic intake manifolds can be cracked in an accident and sometimes and have to be replaced. Expensive part unfortuneltly. LKQ wrecker item probably.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by John/Horace

[Parz1val]

Well, I got my hands on Alldata for the vehicle and it states if its awd you have to remove the t-case as well.... But, now I have the factory diagnostic information to follow.... so hopefully I wont need to go that far. I will post an update after I dig deeper

 

Edit: we bought the vehicle from a Chrysler dealership, it was previously a rental vehicle and we got it with about 27k on it. No faults since until recently (about 84k miles now).

Edited July 16, 2020 by Parz1val

[John/Horace]

Any progress on cyclinder 2 misfire problem. Was it cps related?

[John/Horace]

They say you have to remove front exhaust to change starter on the 3.6;, but there are clips of people removing engine mount and changing it out. Alldata not always correct I have heard.

Did ptu have to be removed on awd 3.6 cps sensor change?? Good information for the site.

[Parz1val]

Well, I am working on this video again. We had a few family emergencies this past year.... Anyway. P302 still persists, I can reset the ecu and it idles/runs fine for sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes a day, before it returns. I did end up doing the rear crank sensor hidden behind the t-case, I was able to disconnect it just enough to rotate and get a wrench to the sensor. I have pictures and plan on putting a guide together for those that need to get to the sensor. (on a AWD 3.6). Replacing that sensor had no affect however. Today I have the intake manifold removed, and am trying to check it for a leak on that runner that maybe i have not been able to hear or see. I am fully open to more ideas that people may have.

 

Compression test passed on all cylinders.

Swapped spark plugs from other cylinders.

Installed new factory spark plugs.

Installed NGK Iridiums.

Installed new fuel injectors, Tested circuitry according to ALLDATA.

Swapped cam position sensors from each head, Tested circuitry according to ALLDATA.

Swapped, then installed a new coilpack, Tested circuitry according to ALLDATA.

Installed new Crank Positioning Sensor, Tested circuitry according to ALLDATA.

 

I have not removed the LOWER intake manifold yet and am getting ready to pull it off and check for cracks/damage.

[Parz1val]

I think I may have found the issue and wish I would have pulled the lower manifold sooner.... All hardware holding it down was very loose, secured, but loose. The first picture is number 2 cylinder showing blow-by, top left corner of the runner. That whole side of the intake, (2-4-6) has grime and oil between the heads themselves and where they make contact with the gaskets of the lower intake.

 

and yes, I realize the second picture is 1-3-5. Its mainly there to show how gritty everything was.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Parz1val

[Parz1val]

As you can see here, not only was the hardware fairly loose but there is no...bounce to the old gaskets and you can see blow-by on all of them. Versus the new gaskets below. I have not decided yet if I should seal them even better with some type of rtv/gasket sealer. I would prefer not to use any unless others have experienced issues if you don't.

[John/Horace]

Wow perseverance. You don’t give up buddy,  glad you found it. That has to be it. When I changed my oil cooler I had the lower intake removed. The fasteners also seemed a little loose on mine, but car was running fine except for the oil leak. I used an inch pound torque wrench because of all the plastic being fastened together.

No atv used but I payed a fortune for the dealer seals in case there was a possible difference. I saw China stamped on Mopar bag after the fact. Sometimes in car accidents the plastic intake manifolds get cracked; if you think car might have been in one you could look for tiny cracks and maybe use silicone. Or buy a used manifold from wreckers. Wow, what a journey, thanks for the follow up. Cheers.

[John/Horace]

Should start new thread. Oil cooler gushes when bad. Valve cover gasket failure seeps. Lower intake can stay in place during plug change; but you are disturbing intake assembly ; creates potential for problems.

[Parz1val]

11 hours ago, John/Horace said:

Wow perseverance. You don’t give up buddy,  glad you found it. That has to be it. When I changed my oil cooler I had the lower intake removed. The fasteners also seemed a little loose on mine, but car was running fine except for the oil leak. I used an inch pound torque wrench because of all the plastic being fastened together.

No atv used but I payed a fortune for the dealer seals in case there was a possible difference. I saw China stamped on Mopar bag after the fact. Sometimes in car accidents the plastic intake manifolds get cracked; if you think car might have been in one you could look for tiny cracks and maybe use silicone. Or buy a used manifold from wreckers. Wow, what a journey, thanks for the follow up. Cheers.

 

Thanks John, Glad to see you are around. Had me worried yesterday! The vehicle has a clean title and has no reported accidents...(we know how that can be sometimes) but I have not found any damage at all or repaint/bodywork. A Little history on the car. It started its life on the west coast, in the Valley, and was used to commute about an hour and 45 mins each way monday-friday for a couple years. From the weather it lived in about half the year is at least 90 Degrees out and about 90k on it now. It now resides in central Ohio, big weather change. The problem didn't start till after its first winter here. Could just be coincidence, idk. There is also cracking on the #1 Cylinder runner of the intake where it is tightened down to the lower half. Not on the runner itself but the cylindrical tube that holds the tightening bolt. Someone had this engine at least semi open before I did it seems. The Valley is nice and dry so that's a plus.

 

 

[Parz1val]