Updates and the infamous 'one click no crank' issue

[Tedybear315]

Okay, it's been a while and a lot of parts under the bridge... Background:  2010 Dodge Journey SXT.   Late sisters ride and I'm the one that is driving it now.

 

Past issue(s)  Horn goes off at random times.    Found TIPM was defective and replaced.  Same TIPM was also causing the cooling fan to run at random times.  So tentatively the horn issue is fixed, and the cooling fan and the battery drain issue are gone!

 

Remaining problems.. Good lord..

 

The starter problem.  This one is like a rash all over the web and youtube!.    Needless to say we did fire the parts cannon slightly.

 

The original starter was pulling 225amps.  And the battery was only supplying 275amps according to the test at the auto store.    So new battery installed!  And we did swap out the battery cables from the battery to the firewall points (the ground strap and the jump point).  All that is 100% good. 

 

The Journey was still doing the super loud click from the starter and no crank.  Usually that's a dead spot in the starter.  So we replaced the starter with a new REMY brand.  (I love finding new parts at the pick and pull  yards.  But I do feel bad for the owner of the car that was rear ended....that must have sucked)

 

Right off the bat?  Single CLICK and no crank.  Cycled the key a few times and it finally turned over great guns! and started up.    So I'm thinking maybe the used TIPM had issues.  I grabbed another spare from the yard and installed it.  No change.  The replacement one did have a blown fuse for the cooling fan (replaced and it's fine.  The junker I removed it from had a front end crash and the radiator/fan was crushed a bit...that would explain the fuse) 

 

So I'm thinking:  NO way this can be another bad TIPM.  Makes zero statistical sense to have a total of 4 (including the factory one) doing the exact same random 'click no crank'...

 

Issues removed as being potential problems:

New Battery installed.  525CCA brand new.

4 TIPMs later....  Statistically not possible to have 4 in a row with the same exact issue.

New(er) starter replaced.  When I put it into 'clear flood' once it starts to crank...  This thing spins the engine wicked quick!! and is smooth as silk. 

Battery cables replaced.

Mounting points for the grounds wire wheeled down for a 100% glitch free mating surface.  I also cleaned the cables to the starter while it was out.

It can't be an issue with the security system.  That is a different set of symptoms. 

 

Pending more diag work:   It did the single click no start at the gas station.  Cycled the key about a dozen times and then it decided to start.

 

Have my scan tool installed and checked the PID for the transmission position.  The range selector appears to be okay.

 

The ignition switch when I hold it in various positions (including the start) appears to be okay and doesn't glitch out according to the scan tool

 

I did try the place the transmission into neutral and give it a shot!    It worked for a few starts, and then did the single click no crank in Neutral.  The scan tool didn't flinch either.  It showed both Park and Neutral each time it flaked out.

 

Noted when this problem acts up.  The PID for the Starter Relay.   When this problem does happen:  The PID toggles from 'off' to 'on' for the click.  It toggles back almost instantly back to 'off' before it has a chance to spin!  So right there...  It's not a starter issue, it's not a battery issue.... It's something else telling the Journey not to attempt to spin over.

 

I'm going to mod one of the spare relays I have on hand with a heavy gauge wire and momentary switch.  So when this acts up and refuses to start, at least I can pop the hood and use a relay bypass to run the starter with the key on.  (should save on being stranded...)

 

I'm not totally sold on it being the range selector in the transmission.  But I do need to replace the side/rear cover that sits behind the LF tire as it's weeping some fluid.  So I might consider  replacing  the range selector while I"m in the neighborhood.  

 

Any ideas are welcome.  This issue is allllll over Google and there are far and few resolutions listed.  Usually people pi$$ and moan about it...Try the neutral start trick (works for them for a while.....) and then they vanish without saying if they ever figured it out!

 

If I track down a solution I'll 100% post it!  Of course as mentioned.  Ideas are welcome!  The wife and I are already planning on doing a full transmission fluid/filter change when we do the side/rear cover.  And in about 5000 miles?   Timing Belt will be due....That should be fun...

 

S-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John/Horace]

One of the more common things to stop a running vehicle is the cps sensor. It can also cause random no starts.

Sometimes no code I stored for this issue. Not an expensive part and eventually a wear item on most vehicles.Even oem part is cheap. Usually cps fault shuts off fuel pump and doesn’t stop cranking. But it can be different on some vehicles.
 

Next time there is a no crank, pull the starter relay and make up a jumper wire. On the starter relay the two contacts that show as squiggles or moving contacts should be jumpered for a second. I think it’s 30 and 87 contacts.

This bypasses all the safety circuits, so make sure vehicle is in park, even parking brake on. If you still get clicks and no start then the issue is directly related to starter unit. (solenoid, cables etc) If it always turns over with jumper it’s one of the safety/security systems acting up. Like the park neutral switch.
 

One of the ground legs on starter relay I think is the park neutral signal. A proper wiring diagram Would show which one it is. A ground jumper to this contact would temporarily by pass it and prove if it is the problem without actually changing it out. I did this in on old jeep I had with the neutral switch buried inside tranny. Good luck.
 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by John/Horace

[Tedybear315]

8 hours ago, John/Horace said:

One of the more common things to stop a running vehicle is the cps sensor. It can also cause random no starts.

Sometimes no code I stored for this issue. Not an expensive part and eventually a wear item on most vehicles.Even oem part is cheap. Usually cps fault shuts off fuel pump and doesn’t stop cranking. But it can be different on some vehicles.
 

Next time there is a no crank, pull the starter relay and make up a jumper wire. On the starter relay the two contacts that show as squiggles or moving contacts should be jumpered for a second. I think it’s 30 and 87 contacts.

This bypasses all the safety circuits, so make sure vehicle is in park, even parking brake on. If you still get clicks and no start then the issue is directly related to starter unit. (solenoid, cables etc) If it always turns over with jumper it’s one of the safety/security systems acting up. Like the park neutral switch.
 

One of the ground legs on starter relay I think is the park neutral signal. A proper wiring diagram Would show which one it is. A ground jumper to this contact would temporarily by pass it and prove if it is the problem without actually changing it out. I did this in on old jeep I had with the neutral switch buried inside tranny. Good luck.
 

 

 

Interesting.  So far the car hasn't stopped running and the scan tool isn't reporting any cam/crank issues or fluctuation.  When it does act up like it does from time to time it just clicks the starter solenoid that one time and doesn't stay active long enough to spin the engine.    However I will check into the Crank Position sensor.  I have found several blown ABS sensors (same principle of operation) so I can see where replacing might solve a problem before it gets worse.

 

I'm going to take an old relay  (I've got about 2 dozen..LOL)  and gut it out.  And then install a momentary push button switch that as you say-  Should bypass all the safety and run it directly off the starter relay.  I know auto parts stores sell relay bypass tools, but I've got a box of spare bits and such and can build it.

 

Finding a wiring diagram is proving hard.  No service manuals can be purchased in hard copy format.  I've found several sites from China and Korea that claim to have all the goodies.  But not sure how far I trust them.

 

I'll dig into it more after I build a relay bypass. 

 

S-

 

 

 

[John/Horace]

You may have tried this already....Could be the coil in starter relay is flaky. Mark one in use now and swap with another one.

[Tedybear315]

3 minutes ago, John/Horace said:

You may have tried this already....Could be the coil in starter relay is flaky. Mark one in use now and swap with another one.

 

 

Yep.  Also we changed the entire TIPM as well.  I'm getting quite fast with changing those out.    Looking over the complaint list about this problem and it reads like a rash!  My  late sister had this thing into the dealership several times for this issue, and all they claimed was  "Loose Ground Wires".   I've triple checked 'em all and everything is super clean and tight.  

 

In many cases Dodge seems to acknowledge a problem exists...and then say it can't identify the source of the problem even if it's at one of their dealerships.   I'd be the first one to say  "Get a designer on a plane" to where the Journey is located (the guys and gals that built this thing...that know every bit of wire and switches) and have it properly diagnosed, or send some of these lemons back to the manufacturing plant for a full inspection/tear down.  The problem is clearly a severe one that effects a large number of these SUV's,  and should be fully addressed in order to generate some good faith between Dodge and the Journey owners.

 

The issue is clearly with the starter circuit, so they should be able to isolate that circuit and figure out what system is causing this to occur.   This looks more like a company (and let's be honest...  ALL car companies have and are still doing this) that is making so many circuits co-dependent on other circuits...and making this so incredibility complex it's like working on a rube goldberg machine.  It's a simple starter circuit!  But it's made so complex the simplest problem can gum up the works.

 

S-

 

   

 

[iceman2k4]

Well, my one click no start was caused by the range sensor. Tried almost everything, new ground wire, cleaned the ground wires, new battery, starter, altinator. Changed range sensor and all is good again. 

[Tedybear315]

Think that might be the root cause.

 

But I'll be dipped if my scan tool can see any glitching with the range sensor.  I figure it might be dropping out the signal so fast that my scanner doesn't have a fast enough refresh rate to catch it.

 

However we are still able to start it by shifting back and forth to neutral to park.  Sometimes it takes a few hits.  I did check out a range sensor while at the local P&P yards.  (nice-pay a couple of bucks and get an education)  The range sensor appears to be buried inside the transaxle itself and looks to be a PITA to get to.  

 

Just going to continue to nurse it along for now.  We just dropped in a crap ton of maintenance items after the engine had a thermostat fail.  (It stuck closed while I was doing 70 down the interstate.  Pulled over within a few seconds and shut it down.)  It popped the rear HVAC heater "y' pipe-  So we replaced that, upper hose, radiator cap and thermostat.   And it was due for the timing belt and water pump.  So that's all done.

 

Now we're fighting with a mystery drop in coolant in the reserve jug and I'll probably swap out the thermostat with a different brand-  It takes FOREVER for it to heat up and we're getting into the cold fall/winter months soon.  (The gauge creeps up super slow to the mid-mark...and the heat sucks)  Did a pressure test on it and it held a decent pressure for about 45 minutes.  Yes it did drop about 7 PSI.  But my pressure tester has a few minor leak issues and rarely seals right.  For it to still have about 10PSI on the gauge,  I'd call that acceptable.  (plus no puddles under the ol' girl.)

 

I topped it off again and marked the level.  I did a basic combustion gas check and it passed before.  Either it's still got air to purge out-  Or something's going on that's unusual.

 

Have a good night!

 

S-

 

 

[2late4u]

any way it might be the key switch itself?

[iceman2k4]

This time I brought it to my local dealer, hoping they could find the cause that I and countless mechanics couldn't find. This is what they wrote

 

CAUSE:

Transmission Range sensor excessive internal resistance. verified customers concern, scanned vehicle for DTCs (none related), checked service bulletins (none applied)

load tested battery (passed), Voltage drop tested battery cables and connections (OK), Load tested main engine ground (OK), load tested T750 starter solenoid output circuit (OK), 

checked all related connectors for defects (none found), Load tested T41 Park Sense Circuit (Failed), Checked resistance for T41 Circuit through Range Sensor (Excessive)

CORRECTION:

Removed front and lower transmission pans, Valve body for access, replaced transmission range sensor assembly as required, replaced transmission sump filter and seal, reinstalled

valve body, cleaned and resealed transmission pans,  refilled transmission with new fluid, cleaned all DTCs, cleared all VLP counts, performed TCM Quicklearn routine, road tested vehicle and rechecked (OK)

 

I hope this helps someone and I'm glad this is behind me. 

 

[2late4u]

9 hours ago, iceman2k4 said:

This time I brought it to my local dealer, hoping they could find the cause that I and countless mechanics couldn't find. This is what they wrote

 

CAUSE:

Transmission Range sensor excessive internal resistance. verified customers concern, scanned vehicle for DTCs (none related), checked service bulletins (none applied)

load tested battery (passed), Voltage drop tested battery cables and connections (OK), Load tested main engine ground (OK), load tested T750 starter solenoid output circuit (OK), 

checked all related connectors for defects (none found), Load tested T41 Park Sense Circuit (Failed), Checked resistance for T41 Circuit through Range Sensor (Excessive)

CORRECTION:

Removed front and lower transmission pans, Valve body for access, replaced transmission range sensor assembly as required, replaced transmission sump filter and seal, reinstalled

valve body, cleaned and resealed transmission pans,  refilled transmission with new fluid, cleaned all DTCs, cleared all VLP counts, performed TCM Quicklearn routine, road tested vehicle and rechecked (OK)

 

I hope this helps someone and I'm glad this is behind me. 

 

just wondering for others that might wonder ,how much did the dealership charge for this repair and glad it fixed your problem

[Tedybear315]

1 hour ago, 2late4u said:

just wondering for others that might wonder ,how much did the dealership charge for this repair and glad it fixed your problem

 

 

Curious myself.  We simply move the shifter to Neutral and back to Park a few times when it happens.  Glad to see the dealership actually did some checks.  My late sister used to own this beast and she had it at several repair shops and the local dealership that blamed it on a bad engine ground.  "Tightened ground at body".  Charged her about $150 and it acted up a few days later.  

 

I looked over the grounds to the engine myself.  Didn't see anything unusual.  Nice and tight with clean contacts.  Some dealerships just want to rush things in and out and do not care about the outcome.

 

S-

 

[iceman2k4]

I live in Canada and nothing is cheap here. I did have them change the tranny filter while they were in there. With that and tax at 13% the total came to $1146.24. Labor was $909 dollars of that. I could've brought it somewhere else to get the work done for less but they found it and I had them do the work. For me it was worth every penny. 

[Clintont11]

I have a 2014 dodge journey  and it started with the 1 click no start and after I replaced  the battery  and starter and starter relay it still had the same issue  1 click no start . What I found out is there are 3 post that has ground wires on them behind the fuse box under the hood each one has to be well grounded in order to start and I added a ground wire tieing them all together and then added a ground wire to the engine block . Then I replaced both battery terminals with brass terminals and it worked . The journey starts every time and has not let me down again . So if you have the same issue  try tieing all the grounds together  and adding a ground to the block it should start and work . Also make to coat all the grounds with a anti Corrosion 

[yyz]

18 hours ago, Clintont11 said:

I have a 2014 dodge journey  and it started with the 1 click no start and after I replaced  the battery  and starter and starter relay it still had the same issue  1 click no start . What I found out is there are 3 post that has ground wires on them behind the fuse box under the hood each one has to be well grounded in order to start and I added a ground wire tieing them all together and then added a ground wire to the engine block . Then I replaced both battery terminals with brass terminals and it worked . The journey starts every time and has not let me down again . So if you have the same issue  try tieing all the grounds together  and adding a ground to the block it should start and work . Also make to coat all the grounds with a anti Corrosion 

That's been mentioned before.There is definitely corrosion that gets on those grounds, a removal and cleanup does wonders.