Engine RPM surge when coming to a stop

[DodgeaWrench]

I have a 2014 Dodge Journey SXT 3.6 FWD 120,000 miles and am the original owner.

 

When coming to a complete stop, at/near the time the vehicle comes to a complete stop, the engine will surge a couple to several hundred RPMs, occasionally as much as 500 RPM.  Blips, but large enough and coupled with braking to shake you in your seat.  Usually the surge happens once while stopping, but two or three surges are not uncommon.  This is now occuring just about every time when coming to a complete stop.  It does not happen during the deceleration such as when exiting a freeway and your foot is off the pedal and you are coasting to the end of the exit ramp.  It WILL occur at the end of the freeway ramp if/when you come to a complete stop.  It does not matter whether you are going fast or slow prior to the complete stop, it does not happen during the deceleration, but occurs just as the vehicle stops moving.  Its been happening for over a year or more but has been getting progressively worse. (Thinking back, it was only very very small blips, not very noticeable, and only occasionally.  Back when it finally started to sink in that something was happening, at first I thought trans issues with maybe downshifting, but then started to watch the tach.)

 

There are no warning lights or message indicators.  Once the vehicle is stopped, the blips stop and the vehicle idles smoothly at about 600 RPM.  The engine starts fine, runs good, runs strong, and gets good mileage.  It has not been taken to a mechanic or dealer for this issue.

 

I’ve removed and cleaned the throttle body - no change.  During the middle of this the spark plugs were replaced – no change.

 

My guess is the throttle body needs to be replaced, but truly I’ve got no supporting facts to do so.  Is there anything else I should be considering?  Are there any other tests I should be doing to narrow this down?

 

If, if, if, the recommendation is throttle body, OEM does not appear to be available anymore.  Even if OEM were available, my guess is it would be more than I would care to spend.  For aftermarket, I don’t know brand ‘x’ from ‘y’.  Any recommendations?

 

Apologies for the long message and thanks in advance for any advice.  While I’m new to submitting to this forum I’ve been an active reader for years and this group has helped me considerably.

 

Thank you.

 

 

[agm2112]

Can you hear any "air suction" sound ? You may have an air leak. Maybe on the upper intake manifold or the throttle body gasket.   But normally this situation would raise a P0300 error. 

[5rebel9]

That's some pretty fair miles on it. the 6 sp trans is kind of funky when it goes thru the gears, have you had the trans oil and FILTER replaced? As the trans drops in gears and just about at a stop and deciding to go into lowest gear can "hang" some, and this can cause an rpm fluctuation. Fresh trans oil and filter may help out on this. 

   Our high mileage (179K miles)2011 will do slightly similar OCCASSIONALLY, but it is an AWD and I don't get to drive it enough to determine if it's from the same FWD portion of the trans or in the rear drive section. 1.2K miles ago it got a new solenoid pack and 2 trans oil and filter changes before we put it on the road. Trans problem was how we got the Journey so cheap....We're "all in" for $4k along with some other maint. work needed.

Edited October 28, 2020 by 5rebel9

[2late4u]

i would be leaning towards the transmission for your problem as well,,,, just wondering why you say a oem throttle body is not available?

[DodgeaWrench]

 

 

The trans fluid and filter has never been changed.  I'll look into having that done.  I see that regardless of whether this is the issue, per the maintenance schedule its time to have it done anyway (@120,000 miles).  It can't hurt to have it changed.  (Famous last words.)

 

When the plugs were replaced, I replaced the intake gaskets too.  The problem occurred before and after.  The throttle body gasket has not been replaced, but I did remove it, clean it and reinstall.  No obvious kinks.

 

As for the throttle body, the sites that sell mopar list P/N 5184349AE as 'discontinued product'.  I guess to clarify, I've never directly contacted a dealer.

 

Thanks for the input!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DodgeaWrench]

Ugh.  This is going to take a twist.

So I call dealer 'A' for trans fluid and filter change... $400 bucks.  (WTF)  I call dealer 'B' and they quote '$300 clams.  (SOB)

I was asking for a filter and fluid change. If anyone was quoting a flush or discussed a flush, I did not pay close enough attention or ask the proper follow up questions.

 

I then searched this forum and there are a few references in 2016 on quotes from dealers for $299 and up.  So $300 for a dealer to charge is not out or line with what others have seen years ago.  Regardless, I'm to thrifty...  frugal...  alright, to cheap to pay that.  I'll now be spending time researching how to change the trans filter and fluid.  Youtube is my fiend.  I'll also be practicing checking and recording the trans fluid level before I begin.  Once ordered, parts and fluid will take a week or so to get here (genuine mopar).

 

Advise is welcomed.

 

Thank you.

 

 

[probak118]

Dodgeawrench,

 

It may have cost me $120 to do myself for the filter, gasket material and 11 litres of fluid in total. Things being cheaper in USA maybe $80 for you... LOL. If I remember the pan held about 5-Litres and I syphoned out 3 L weekly / twice from the "dealer only" tube and back in the same way, until the fluid was a bright redish -pink again overall. So yes it is thrifty to do it yourself if you do not mind the time doing is in steps.

[5rebel9]

With following good directions, it is not hard to drop the bottom pan and change out the filter. Whatever you do, do NOT have the trans Flushed as many services claim to do to replace the oil. that has shown to be a killer for these transmissions. On refill there is a bolt to remove and then fill till fluid seep out that bolt hole. It's a bit "funky" for us oldtimers that have always had a dipstick to check fill level. 

I use Walmart brand ATF+4 for oil, it meets the requirements and is a lot less costly. Any auto parts store should have the filter cheaper than the dealers price.

[2late4u]

1 hour ago, probak118 said:

Dodgeawrench,

 

It may have cost me $120 to do myself for the filter, gasket material and 11 litres of fluid in total. Things being cheaper in USA maybe $80 for you... LOL. If I remember the pan held about 5-Litres and I syphoned out 3 L weekly / twice from the "dealer only" tube and back in the same way, until the fluid was a bright redish -pink again overall. So yes it is thrifty to do it yourself if you do not mind the time doing is in steps.

use to do that to my daughters caravan that she used for a mail vehicle every oil change would replace a quart of trans fluid, didnt cause no slippage of the trans by changing to much at one time

 

[John/Horace]

Dorman makes a dip stick kit for measuring, has a chart and measurements, if you can’t find bolt that shows level.

 

Let the atv dry overnight before before filling and driving. Torque wrench for inch pound tightening pan bolts, they don’t have to go very tight.

[DodgeaWrench]

Thanks for all the advise.  You've psyched me up to do it myself.

I'll order up the parts this weekend and do it next weekend weather permitting.

I need to hurry a bit as its getting colder here in the Detroit area and I'm a driveway mechanic.

 

My plan is to do the filter change, then a syphon weekly for 2 weeks.  I'll buy 10 liters of fluid total and when that's gone, I'll be done.  (Assumption is 5-6 liters on the filter change then 2-3 liters for each of 2 syphons.  Another assumption is that the trans oil removed is not burnt or gritty, which is a whole another story if it is. ).  Luckily I do have a pump/syphon for extracting the trans fluid for the followup syphoning.  I'll do a lot of measuring of the fluids removed to accurately replace with the same as well as look for that bolt that address the level and I'll order up a trans dipstick too.

 

As a side note, one thing I'm realizing is that probably like most average Joe drivers, I've been neglecting my trans maintenance.  We usually keep our vehicles for 10-11 years. That is usually right around 200,000 miles, and I've never had a fluid/filter change.  Lucky?  Going forward I'm definitely going to make this a higher priority to stay on top of.

 

More to come.

 

Thanks again.

Advise welcomed.

 

 

 

 

 

[2late4u]

also you tube has some good videos on how to measure your oil dip stick so you can use it as well for your transmission dip stick,i went ahead and marked mine with the fluid level in the trans and it was right on with the instructions from the videos, i just marked my dip stick on the edge with a small file mark real easy just wipe it off good when getting read to check the trans...

[probak118]

22 hours ago, DodgeaWrench said:

Thanks for all the advise.  You've psyched me up to do it myself.

I'll order up the parts this weekend and do it next weekend weather permitting.

I need to hurry a bit as its getting colder here in the Detroit area and I'm a driveway mechanic.

 

My plan is to do the filter change, then a syphon weekly for 2 weeks.  I'll buy 10 liters of fluid total and when that's gone, I'll be done.  (Assumption is 5-6 liters on the filter change then 2-3 liters for each of 2 syphons.  Another assumption is that the trans oil removed is not burnt or gritty, which is a whole another story if it is. ).  Luckily I do have a pump/syphon for extracting the trans fluid for the followup syphoning.  I'll do a lot of measuring of the fluids removed to accurately replace with the same as well as look for that bolt that address the level and I'll order up a trans dipstick too.

 

As a side note, one thing I'm realizing is that probably like most average Joe drivers, I've been neglecting my trans maintenance.  We usually keep our vehicles for 10-11 years. That is usually right around 200,000 miles, and I've never had a fluid/filter change.  Lucky?  Going forward I'm definitely going to make this a higher priority to stay on top of.

 

More to come.

 

Thanks again.

Advise welcomed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[probak118]

We are close , I live 30 minutes away from Windsor / Detroit crossings, getting colder now, get it done sooner than later. I used a manual syphon too and the temperature may affect tube flexibility. I used empty washer fluid jug to store and mark how much fluid I removed,  refilled jug to line with new fluid , same amount removed and replaced. This is the gasket material I used after cleaning old gasket materials from both faces, try to get an even coat all the way around. Make sure you hear and feel the new plastic filter snap when pushing it back into place, ensuring it is seated correctly. Easy job just takes some time next weekend looks good for doing this work. Good Luck

Edited November 1, 2020 by probak118
spelling

[DodgeaWrench]

Disappointing.  The trans filter hasn't arrived yet.  Supplier was a slow ship.  Filter in route.  Should arrive next week.

 

I changed my wiper blades while waiting.  (whoopie)

 

 

[DodgeaWrench]

The trans fluid and filter have been changed.  No surprises.  The process was just as most Youtube videos lay out.  The old fluid was brown but not gritty.  As expected, there was sludge buildup by the magnet, but no metal pieces.  Definitely it was time to change the trans fluid, clean the pan, and replace the filter.

Word of advice:  If you have 120,000 miles on your DJ, plan to keep the vehicle, and haven’t had the trans filter and oil changed, don’t put it off.  Its time.

 

For those Average Joes (me) doing it on your driveway, definitely put down lots of cardboard to protect the cement from fluid drips.  My superpower is that I only have to look at oil and it drips onto my driveway.  Even a slight breeze can cause the trans fluid to spray while its draining into a pan.  I used aluminum foil draped between the jack stands to block any breezes.  An oil extractor was used to get out as much of the trans fluid out first, before dropping the pan, to try an minimize how much fluid will have to drain under the car.  The worst part, and most time-consuming part of the job was getting all the old sealant off the pan.  I had to resort to using WD40 and a razorblade.  (I hate using a razorblade for fear of gouging.)  The trans side had no old sealant residue.  I wussed out and did not change the filter grommet.  It looked to difficult for me to remove without gouging trans metal. 

 

I am fluid level challenged.  I definitely find it difficult to read trans fluid levels.  I tried several times during the week prior and it always read overfilled when compared to charts.  I was using an aftermarket stick with millimeter markings, and made attempts when hot and cold.  I even remeasured the markings on the stick to make sure they were correct, and when the pan and filter were off, I double checked to made sure the stick would come to rest at its perch inside the trans.  Bottom line, I measured the amount of fluid removed and replaced with the exact same amount.  Today I will drive the vehicle to operating temperatures and try again.

 

 

 

 

 

[2late4u]

i am old school on the 3.6 6 speed they recommend changing at 100 k ,had mine changed at 65 k and will do again at 120 k...only makes good sense as no fluid will last that long without degrading and buildup with gunk, i did cheat and lwt the dealership change it as i got a great service price on having it done 

[Armando G]

@DodgeaWrench great job getting the change done yourself (as I get older and my patience gets slimmer, I would have probably paid). Thanks for the update... let us know if this took care of your original issue of high RPMs? Curious as to how much the fluid affected that. 

[larryl]

Mine has 145000 miles plugs, tranny fluid and filter plus antifreeze done @ 50 & 100000 miles soon to be done @ 150

[DodgeaWrench]

Did a test drive.  I find the results a bit puzzling. 

 

Changing the fluid did not solve the problem.  Still a surge just as the vehicle is coming to a complete stop, but there is now a new symptom.  On three occasions, while coming to a stop from approximately 40mph, just as vehicle came to a complete rest, there was the surge and then the engine stalled as the RPMs came down from the surge.  Previously during this issue, NEVER did it stall.  I put the car in Park and it would immediately restart without hesitation.

While not proven, I ’think’ I could recreate the stall, by coming to complete full stop quickly from 40mph, versus feathering the brake slightly to allow the car to slightly roll through the surge then stop completely.

???

 

Next on my list is to replace the PVC valve.  I had included it in my trans filter order because at 120,000 it is (over) due, so I have it in hand.  It seems accessible and not too difficult.  I still should have time to swap it out today.

 

[OhareFred]

Torque converter locking up?

[DodgeaWrench]

Replaced the PCV valve.  Whoa.  Another lesson learned.  I should have replaced that long ago.

Definitely the cam(?) seal on the valve was long gone and leaking oil thru the valve into the intake.

When I pulled the tube between the intake and PCV off, the tube was dripping with engine oil.

Because of the oil passing into the intake, for grins, I pulled the MAP sensor to check for oil and swirled in a corner of a piece of paper towel to try and clean it out.  I cant say the inside of the MAP was oily, but I can't say it was dry either.

I'll be driving tomorrow to see if any of this changed anything.   

 

See pic below.  Notice the difference in the PCV seal diameter difference.

 

 

 

 

[DodgeaWrench]

After changing the trans fluid and replacing the PCV valve, unfortunately the problem is still there, but it is it is far far far calmer than when I started.  Definitely replacing the PCV valve had a positive effect.  I also believe the fluid level in the trans was initially too high.  I have no idea how that could have happened, as I never have even opened the cap before.  Possibly one of the few times it was at the dealership they added a bit, or when taken to the local oil change shop for a LOF.  ???

 

I am in a MUCH better place to redescribe the issue.  The problem definitely is a (common-ish) down shifting issue.  Its when coming to a stop and the vehicle needs to downshift from higher gears.  When downshifting from 4^th or 5^th you can feel the ‘bump’ (not a clunk), and the RPM and vehicle do a surge during each shift down.  Stopping from when the vehicle is in first or second is smooth.  No issues.  Allowing the vehicle to roll through the higher downshifts allows for a smoother shift down.  Its in those more aggressive stops, when the downshifting from higher gears is happening as the vehicle is barely rolling or stopped, is when the problem is pronounced.  For the most part of this past week (after fluid and PCV change), city driving is fine as top speed is rarely above 35-40mph and stopping is long and slow.  No issues.  In hindsight, for a long time and very sporadically (once a month-ish) a whinny noise occurs under the hood.  I always thought this was coming from the alternator.  Now I know it’s the trans.  Also on occasion when stopping (when the trans is downshifting from higher gears), the vehicle shudders as if going over rumble strips.  Again, I now know its the trans, not the road or engine issue.

 

So where does this leave me?  First, if anyone has any suggestions for additional items to check or do, please, please let me know.  Otherwise, it appears that hard downshifting / even stalling when downshifting as coming to a more aggressive stop is a fairly common problem that requires trans work to repair.  I guess I should take it in to get a quote.  $$$

Any thoughts on if I do not get this repaired, am I accelerating some type of damage/breakdown? 

 

My thought of the day is TCC valve?  I’ve looked at a few videos, and the TCC may be accessible without pulling the trans.  Anyone replaced their own? (If I were to even attempt this, as winter is just getting ready to start, I wouldn’t even make an attempt for another 6 months.)

 

Thank you.

 

 

[DodgeaWrench]

UPDATE after winter

 

Throughout the winter the downshift problem continued to get more subdued.  At times I wondered if it was still there, but if I paid attention, closely, it was.  When all this started, passengers could notice the car jerking when coming to a stop.  Now, they wouldn’t even notice.  The car no longer feels like its riding over rumble strips when coming to a stop, nor when at its worst, the car does not stall when coming to a stop.  My conclusion is that the trans fluid change and subsequence fluid swaps were not an instant fix, but over time resolved a majority of the issue.  (Slowly cleaning itself?)  Another possibility is that the cold weather had a positive effect that may change when the weather warms.

 

I was still prepared to replace the TCC solenoid (I bought one, its cheap), but after thinking about it and looking at it yesterday, I wimped out and decided the risk / reward / effort wasn’t worth it for such a minor issue.  As I was working on the car yesterday (replaced serpentine belt due to age), I swapped another 2 liters of trans fluid out for grins. Maybe it will continue to get better?

 

I’ll continue to monitor the situation.

 

 

 

After removing the airbox, the picture below is of the trans covers that needs to be removed, the electrical connections that would need to be disconnected, and possibly trans hoses that would need to be disconnected, to access the TCC valve, which I believe sits on top of the solenoid pack under these covers.

[John/Horace]

Have you scanned to see if any codes showing up in ecm that could point towards the issue?