Direction Control malfunctions

[Neto]

Our 2009 Journey did a weird thing to my wife this morning.  She started the car, and the Direction Control icon (skidding tires) came on before she put the car in reverse to back out of the parking spot.  The engine was also running rough - small lurches as she described it.  It dies a few times before she was able to go, and it seemed to run better w/o the A/C going.  It died 2 or 3 times at stop lights or stop signs, before she go to the next place.  Then it died when she tried to back out there as well (after leaving it running the whole time while there).  

On-line searches suggest that it might be a failing brake light switch, or the Direction Control system going haywire.  But what could cause ALL of these issues except a major malfunction of the central computer module?  I started it several times after I got home for lunch, backed up, went forward, etc., had the A/C on. Listened to the A/C with a stick against it and on the bone behind my ear, all of that.  It's working fine now, as far as I can tell.  We DID also just fill up (gasoline) a couple of days ago, but drove about 25 miles on Sunday, going to services at a convention in the area in stead of our regular congregation.  It never acted up like this before.  (I thought also about the fuel filter, and haven't replaced it recently.  Also have not had a general tune-up for quite a long time.)  The car has just over 105,000 on it.

 

[In case anyone has noticed that I've not been on here for a long time - which I doubt - we were w/o internet for 4 weeks after a big storm here in Holmes County Ohio.  ("Derencho", they called it.  Had lots of trees down all over, one on the house, and a big Black Walnut uprooted in the back yard.  About the internet service, we actually just finally got a different provider.]

[5rebel9]

I take it that without searching your past postings that you have the 2.4 motor? How about recent spark plugs/ throttle body cleaning?

The "skidding tires" icon light comes up on both our'11 and 14 once in a blue moon and goes away, I think possible clockspring issue due to heat humidity. I'd not worry much for your situation there as this should not effect driveability. YES you may have had some water in the last fill up as you posted of your recent weather. Put a can of Seafoam in the tank and check up on your maint history. Spark plugs and throttle bodies are a common weak point to these 4 cyl. motors.

[2late4u]

also fuel filter is in the tank non serviceable on most new cars not sure if you have one on a 2009 that you can change as mentioned i would add a couple of cans of dry gas to your tank and then change your plugs as well and might as well check your air filter

Edited July 26, 2022 by 2late4u

[Neto]

2 hours ago, 5rebel9 said:

I take it that without searching your past postings that you have the 2.4 motor? How about recent spark plugs/ throttle body cleaning?

The "skidding tires" icon light comes up on both our'11 and 14 once in a blue moon and goes away, I think possible clockspring issue due to heat humidity. I'd not worry much for your situation there as this should not effect driveability. YES you may have had some water in the last fill up as you posted of your recent weather. Put a can of Seafoam in the tank and check up on your maint history. Spark plugs and throttle bodies are a common weak point to these 4 cyl. motors.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it is the 2.4 Four Banger.    The car was in the garage during the storm, but yes, of course the humidity is also high.  And if the filling station had a breach of their gasoline tanks, then there's that possibility, too.  

As concerns maintenance, I know that I have not replaced the parts you mention.  After I got back home and looked at it, I did just about everything my wife said she was doing when it acted up for her, but now she's afraid to drive it.  So I guess I have to do SOMETHING.  (Because the only time I drive it is on Sunday mornings to church, and only occasionally otherwise.)  

 

Should I plan on replacing the throttle body?  Maybe I shouldn't be doing so much of the maintenance on our cars anymore, since I learned on the older carburetor engines, setting the points, and all of that good stuff.  (I had a shop do a bunch of front-end work a year or so back, but other than that, I do it all.  Just never worked on the front wheel drive system of any vehicle.)

[Neto]

1 minute ago, 2late4u said:

also fuel filter is in the tank non serviceable on most new cars not sure if you have one on a 2009 that you can change

OK.  Will have to take a look.  Like I told the other gentleman, I'm "old-school" on vehicle maintenance.  (If it was up to me alone, I would just stick with the older vehicles.  I have a 46 Plymouth I want to get back on the road.  Had it since 1980.)

[2late4u]

1 minute ago, Neto said:

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it is the 2.4 Four Banger.    The car was in the garage during the storm, but yes, of course the humidity is also high.  And if the filling station had a breach of their gasoline tanks, then there's that possibility, too.  

As concerns maintenance, I know that I have not replaced the parts you mention.  After I got back home and looked at it, I did just about everything my wife said she was doing when it acted up for her, but now she's afraid to drive it.  So I guess I have to do SOMETHING.  (Because the only time I drive it is on Sunday mornings to church, and only occasionally otherwise.)  

 

Should I plan on replacing the throttle body?  Maybe I shouldn't be doing so much of the maintenance on our cars anymore, since I learned on the older carburetor engines, setting the points, and all of that good stuff.  (I had a shop do a bunch of front-end work a year or so back, but other than that, I do it all.  Just never worked on the front wheel drive system of any vehicle.)

first i would siphon the gas out of your tank since you SAY the local gas station\ had a breach of their tanks then refill half a tank and then add some dry gas ( product helps remove water from the tank)

[Neto]

40 minutes ago, 2late4u said:

first i would siphon the gas out of your tank since you SAY the local gas station\ had a breach of their tanks then refill half a tank and then add some dry gas ( product helps remove water from the tank)

I said 'if the filling station had a breach".  I really doubt that they did, because the one where my wife usually fills up is on top of a hill.  But there WAS a terrific down-pour in a very short time span.  I just mentioned the possibility because the car was inside the garage during the entire storm, and is actually rarely out in the rain.  (I DO know that in some languages the English words 'if' and 'since' are translated with the exact same word, and the context determines the meaning.  Usually.)

 

I'll follow up on the suggestions made so far as soon as the nearby stores open again.

[2late4u]

i would replace the plugs first before doing anything else as bad plugs can cause an erratic driving pattern ,as such thinking of you having  trans problems or water in gas as well,,do the simple things first that also cost the least

 

[Neto]

My son-in-law sent over an ODB II analyzer (or what ever it is called), and my son helped pull the following codes:

CONFIRMED

PO 336
Generic - Powertrain
Crankshaft Position Sensor “A” Circuit Range/Performance

PO315
Generic - Powertrain
Crankshaft Position System Variation Not Learned

PO300
Generic - Powertrain
Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

P2004
Generic - Powertrain
Intake Runner Manifold Control Stuck Open Bank 1

P2004
Mercedez-Benz – Powertrain
Upgrade to get manufacturer specific codes

UO402
Generic – Network
Invalid Date Received from TCM

PO339
Generic - Powertrain
Crankshaft Position Sensor “A” Circuit Intermittent

PO335
Generic - Powertrain
Crankshaft Position Sensor “A” Circuit

PO606
Generic - Powertrain
Control Module Processor

PENDING

PO300
Generic - Powertrain
Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

P2004
Generic - Powertrain
Intake Runner Manifold Control Stuck Open Bank 1

P2004
Mercedez-Benz – Powertrain
Upgrade to get manufacturer specific codes

PERMANENT

No Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Codes Reported
 

I'm pretty certain that fixing this is beyond my skills, but just wondering if this indicates a major computer controller failure.  In other words, is this going to kill off this 14 year old car?  (I readily admit that this is WAY outside my experience level.)  Oh, and this was done with the engine running.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Neto

[Neto]

Just to add a bit more info here, after watching some videos and doing more searching here on the forum.

First, a self disclosure.  In some other threads here about the throttle body, a new guy was dissed because he didn't know where the throttle body was located.  Well, I didn't either.  Had no idea what it is.  I'm going on 67.  I did my first engine swap when I was 21.  I did my first overhaul when I was 24.  BUT, that was a flathead in-line 6, a Plymouth 230.  A couple of years later I had an intake leak on my 72 Dodge 318.  Pulled it all apart and replaced the gasket.  Not a complicated job at all, really, but while I had it apart my brother-in-law, who was in construction, looked under the hood and said "That car will never run again."  (It did.)  Then we moved to Brazil, where we didn't have  vehicle of our own for quite a few years.  Then I bought an 84 Volkswagon, the model that was called the Fox here (Voyage there), but it was an alcohol engine.  It barely ran when I bought it, immediately replaced the carburetor, because the alcohol eventually eats out the inside of the carb, and you can no longer adjust the fuel-air mixture.  Ran fine after that, but later needed to have the valves reseated.  (I didn't have the tools there for that job, so I just did the R & R.)

 

My point is that although I've had a good deal of experience with engine work, I didn't know where the throttle body was on a modern engine.  Living out of the country for 18 years, and then owning a 15+ year old car there, I missed that whole transition period, when cars went from carbureted fuel systems to fuel injection.  Not to strike back at anyone, or to be bragging, but some of the guys here were still making messes in their diapers when I did that first engine overhaul.  So maybe some will say I shouldn't own (or be trying to maintain) modern vehicles.  Well, if it wasn't for my wife's insistence, I would only have old vehicles, the ones I know how to work on. 

 

No one has said anything like that to me, yet.  But by modern standards, I "deserve it". I would, however, suggest a bit more restraint in dealing with people before coming on with the smart-alec comebacks.  Think of people like me as your old grandpa who grew up in that rather different era.

 

Now, for more info on my issue here with the Journey.  I ran through the process of "resetting the throttle body" as described by various forum members here, in other threads.  (Thanks for that, by the way.)  That didn't change anything, but I noticed then that while it runs fine when first started, the RPMs began to drop after a few minutes, then the engine starts to shake like all get out, and it barely keeps running.

 

I hope no one is offended by what I said here.  I do not mean it that way.  I know - we can easily become that crusty old guy who has no patience with new-comers.  I participate on the post-war Plymouth forum, and maybe I've been guilty myself.  But we don't get new people into the hobby by making them feel stupid.

[John/Horace]

Another common failure item at your milage on the 2.4 four cylinder is the CPS or crank position sensor.

You are having an intermittent problem;  this electrical sensor can cause stalling and no starts like you are experiencing.

It’s a wear item and only around $25. I would use a dealership part on a critical item like this. The codes that showed up on the reader scan included this sensor as suspect. 

Lightning bolt symbol and throttle codes would have pointed to worn/dirty throttle body assembly. It will likely be failing soon as well, still cheaper than changing vehicles. Good luck.

[Neto]

Well, it's been a long time since I started this, and high time I came back to this.  My wife insisted that I not try to fix this myself, so I took it into an area shop. It's been a long, drawn out affair, where they tell me, after around 7 weeks, that it's fixed.  But it wasn't.  So in the meantime my wife (who is the primary driver for this vehicle - I mostly only drive it to church services on Sundays) has lost all confidence in the Journey.  So our 'journey' with the Journey has come to an end.

 

I'm a dyed in the wool MoPar guy, but the 2009 Journey is leaving this family.  I guess it did well, outliving the entire production run.  We purchased it used right around Christmas 2010.  Manufacture date was in July of 2008.  My wife wanted something else this time, so we now own one of those "ferrin" cars, but built here in Ohio, I think. 

The Journey went into the shop July 27th.  They had it until September 13th.  Said it was fixed, but it wasn't.  Took it back again September 30th, supposedly for a 1 or 2 day deal (to install the cam sensor).  Finally just went & got it "as is" today, October 24th.  It did fine on the short drive home (less than 2 miles), but it's still throwing the one code, C121C.

 

They don't know how to fix it.  Traction Control light comes on after starting the engine, usually before putting it in gear.  Error Code C121C "Torque Request Signal Denied". 

 

Stuff they did that I know about (I asked for a complete list several times, but I finally realize that I'll never get one.):
Cleaned the throttle Body, and replaced the TB sensor.
Replaced the main computer.
Replaced the Cam Sensor.

 

He now thinks it might be in the wiring, but at this point my wife is ready for a different vehicle, so it's "game over".  (Bought a '19 Honda CR-V on Saturday.)  So now (with only just over 105,000 miles on it) I have to decide whether to take it elsewhere, pay more, and maybe have someone else tell me that it cannot be fixed, and just throw more good money after bad (or maybe spend more getting it fixed than I can sell it for), try to sell it as is, sell my work car (2010 Dodge Caravan almost 140,000 miles) and drive it as is.  (The mechanic thinks that the problem, what ever it is, may be the reason the ECM went bad, and that using it as is will result in burning out another.  To be honest, however, I’m not convinced the original one was really bad.  I asked him, among other questions, how much better it ran after they cleaned the throttle body, which they did first, but he never answered.)  And now, although the past two days have been warm, even almost hot, here in Ohio I know that won’t last, and I don’t have a heated shop to work on it myself.
 

So, once again, if anyone can give me a good idea of what the issue is, it would be much appreciated.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Neto

[Neto]

Update:

I still have the 09 Journey.  Registration ran out in November, so I had to make a decision quickly.  The "off-brand" 2019 we bought is an AWD, and came new M&S tires, but my wife doesn't trust anything but Blizzaks.  The salesman on this deal was extremely knowledgeable, and we were both impressed with his manner.  But the one thing he told us that my wife won't accept is that you almost cannot get this car stuck in snow, even if you try to.  So I put the Blizzaks back on the Journey, while trying to find the preferred steel wheels for the Honda CRV.  Apparently they were never offered, and I cannot even find any after-market steel wheels for this vehicle.  Bought some used alloys, but wanted to clean off the salt corrosion and repaint, and it's COLD here in Ohio, so we're using the Journey for winter driving for the time being.  So that explains why the Journey is still in my "stable".  (Also, I wanted to be sure that it wouldn't fail catastrophically right away after selling it, and it also has an outstanding recall on it.)

 

So here's the actual update on the Journey.  About a week ago the ESP and BAS lights came on, and stay on.  I don't have a code reader - borrowed one before - so I don't know what codes it's throwing.  I've read other threads here about the ESP light coming on, and the car won't go out of Park.  Nothing like that here.  I should also say that the wheels on which the snow tires are mounted do not have the fancy sensor valve stems.  (But these lights didn't come on until well after I installed those wheels.)

So these lights stay on all of the time, but I haven't noticed any difference at all in the way the car runs or drives.  It's just those lights.

 

So should I expect it to suddenly do like the other guy's car, and either not run, or not go out of park?  This Electronic Stability Program (ESP) Indicator Light / Brake Assist System (BAS) malfunction, does it just result in a more 'manual, old-timish' braking and steering scenario, where the ABS and features like stop working, or is it more dangerous than that?  (I already said in previous posts that most of my driving experience has been on vehicles w/o any of that stuff, and actually think that for people who learned to drive on vehicles like that, you actually have better control of the vehicle w/o ABS.  Like trying to slow down when the right side wheels are on snow or ice, and only the left side is on clear pavement.  I don't want to start an argument about that - just saying that for me personally, I have better control of a vehicle w/o ABS than one with it.)  My concern as to this malfunction creating a dangerous situation is mostly due to the fact that our daughter is in the hospital due to complications of their twins' upcoming birth, and so we often use this car to transport their 19 month old.  (Taking care of him most days, so our son-in-law can keep working, and spend time with our daughter in the hospital.  It is now 4 weeks that she's been there.)

Edited February 4, 2023 by Neto