Replaced LF Wheel Speed sensor, now traction control light but no codes

[khnitz]

I'm helping my in-laws with a repair on their 2014 Dodge Journey 3.6 AWD.  I have a Foxwell NT510 scanner that I am using to help with the diagnosis.

They had the ABS, Traction Control and Service AWD warning/lights lit, and the code that came up was for a bad LF wheel speed sensor.  I replaced the sensor and cleared the codes.  The codes are not coming back, but, the traction control is engaging at about 4mph and it will go no faster.

When I did a live read of all 4 wheel speed sensors, the RF, LR and RR all read 4mph, but the LF sensor gave erratic readings (1mph, etc.) When the traction control light was active.

And...in this condition, there are no ABS codes stored.

So, next steps...I'm thinking the LF tone ring is bad or dirty/clogged?  Is the tone ring built into the wheel hub, or does it slip on to the end of the CV axle/joint?  My in-laws live 2 states away, so I just want to be prepared for my next trip here to put it all right.

In the meantime, I've pulled the 40A fuse for the ABS/TCS, so that the Journey can be driven normally (just means the ABS/TCS is unavailable).

 

TIA

Edited September 2, 2022 by khnitz

[2late4u]

Welcome to the group,,,,,could also be the wheel bearing going bad, also i believe the tone ring is built onto the cv axle,, when doing tight circles left and right  in a parking lot is there any noise such as clicking in either direction would point to a bad cv joint, is the  wheel spinning okay with no noise or shake, good luck on what you find out and please report back on what you find to be the problem for others should they have such a problem,, also when you replace the wheel sensor did you check to see if dirt or anything was down in the sensor hole, might try blowing it out with some compressed air just in case 

[2late4u]

after checking cv axle for our journey looks like there is no tone ring on it and now i believe it is built into the bearing,,,maybe John/Horace  or one of our other members will chime in on this one he is more on top of things than i am

[khnitz]

Thanks for the help!

 

Reading in other forums (for the Charger), some have reported problems with anything other than Mopar wheel speed sensors.  So, in full disclosure, the sensor I installed is from NTK. 

Working for a Tier1 myself, and being familiar with some of the players in the sensor world, NTK seems like a reasonable replacement option.  But, I'm open to learning from others' experieces.

[John/Horace]

Odd problem,  I use NTK  (basically part of NGK I believe) as a go to vendor often, have never had a problem with their stuff.

The rear bearing hub comes with the abs sensor built in and a new cable (see pic). Front bearing has no sensor build in, sensor mounts on the spindle housing. Sensor and cable are an integrated one piece unit as you know. No visible toner ring on c/v like 2late4u is saying. Not sure how it figures out speed, splines in c/v shaft not close enough to measure.

 

 

 

A couple of options to play with.  Using multi meter measure ohms on the new NTK sensor and compare to another working abs sensor on the journey (could even check the suspect bad sensor if you still have it). It’s possible Mopar oem are slightly different value (I doubt it). It’s also possible you got a faulty sensor from NTK out of the box.

Also give the abs wiring a real close look for physical damage; bad time for chip monks, mice chewing on stuff. 

[khnitz]

Ok, thanks for those ideas.  The old sensor ohmed out at 4.6M Ohm - that seems problematic.

 

I should have time this weekend yet to measure the new NTK and also the other front sensor.

[khnitz]

This morning I measured the RF (original, still good) sensor at 4.28 MOhm...hmmm.

 

And the LF (new, NTK) sensor at .470 MOhm

 

I did confirm my metef could measure a dead short correctly, too.

 

I will have access to an air compressor this morning and I will try and blow the tone ring clear through the sensor opening and see if that helps (maybe there's flaked off rust built up in that area of the sensor opening).

 

As you said, @John/Horace, looking at other pictures online the tone ring is pressed on at the end of the CV joint, but it doesn't have visible gaps or teeth, but likely there's something embedded in its construction to provide the rotational count to the sensor.

[John/Horace]

There must be slots sensor is counting some where, it’s just not obvious. I’m in rust belt but was able to remove front sensor and change a wheel bearing a few weeks ago. Sensors pretty tuff. Was surprised it worked on reinstall.

 

The old old sensor is closer to oem good sensor reading  than new NTK. Try taking auto range selection off when measuring the new sensor a second time. I think it is probably very close to value of resistance as the known good oem. If you keep getting 0.47 on new sensor, it could be a bad sensor. 
 

Haven’t heard of a learn procedure for an abs sensor before. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by John/Horace

[khnitz]

I went to Autozone this morning and measured one of their sensors, and it measured close to the RF OEM one at 4.7 MOhm.  So, I went ahead and swapped the NTK for the Duralast from Autozone.  I did have a friend lend me his small compressor, so I also blew out the sensor hole and spun the hub and kept blowing/clearing that are out.

 

With the new-new sensor installed, I went for a drive and...same result.  Tone Wheel signal fault C003002 - Left Front Tone Wheel-General Signal Failure.

 

When I get back home, I'll pull the data I captured from all the wheel speed sensors on my test drive and post a graph here.  It seems like the tone wheel is providing a signal only in part of the wheel rotation, so that is confusing the ABS system.  I could not accelerate and exceed 5mph, as the traction control was limiting the vehicle speed.  Interestingly, if I coasted down a hill to 20mph, then the system would allow the car to drive normally (though with various ABS/TCS/AWD warnings lit).  While I was monitoring the speed readings during the test drive, the other 3 wheels were reading consistently together, while the LF wheel would sometimes read the same as the others and then other timed drop down low again.

 

There is no DTC for the wheel speed sensor itself, so it must be providing the expected load of a good sensor to the ABS controller.

 

That's all for this trip to my in-law's.  I will post the data when I get back home later this weekend.  Right now, I am leaning towards having to replace the LF CV axle (with the tone ring on it) in order to correct this issue.  There are no other CV axle issues present (no groaning, no CV click in tight turns, etc.), so it's a shame that it has to be replaced just for the tone ring, but what can you do.  At least I can do it for them, and they're not paying shop rates to diagnose and correct this.

[John/Horace]

There is no visible tone ring on  c/v shaft, the pic is a awd front left drive shaft, fwd looks the same.  It might be inside the rubber boot and get sensed through the rubber, not sure.

I have changed them on cars where they are in the open and easily damaged. Turning off traction control switch might allow driving normal speed without pulling fuses for now. I wonder if the wire harness has a damaged wire between the wheel sensor plug and the abs control unit. Or if the abs control unit itself has corrupted firm ware on one of the four channels. Very odd problem. 

 

 

[John/Horace]

So it’s not the regular metal toner ring with slots, it’s a rubber ring with magnetic inserts. Must be damaged where you can’t see it internally, so new c/v shaft I guess.

 

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiyh_nO9vn5AhVXkokEHUh3ArEQFnoECB0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FMagnetic-Encoding-213132ABS-Chrylser-Challenger%2Fdp%2FB078X1SLFF&usg=AOvVaw2BpMBuZgTkCYG_ih7j-fFD

 

[2late4u]

2 hours ago, John/Horace said:

So it’s not the regular metal toner ring with slots, it’s a rubber ring with magnetic inserts. Must be damaged where you can’t see it internally, so new c/v shaft I guess.

 

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiyh_nO9vn5AhVXkokEHUh3ArEQFnoECB0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FMagnetic-Encoding-213132ABS-Chrylser-Challenger%2Fdp%2FB078X1SLFF&usg=AOvVaw2BpMBuZgTkCYG_ih7j-fFD

 

just checking on amazon they say it doesn't fit 2014 journey,,,,,might be a different one somewhere tho   good info john

[5rebel9]

I try to not but in when other members seem to have things in order but this time,,,,,,

  I did some looking on my own and cross referencing parts between my '11 and my '14 (both AWD) I had recently replaced a front wheel bearing on the '11 and the bearing is the same for the '14. When I removed the bearing(and not a hard job) the outer CV joint INDEED had a toothed TONE RING. Can see no reason the '14 would be any different as if one cross references same driveline parts between the 2 years, they are the same.

[John/Horace]

I don’t recall seeing one on our 2014, but  I was in a hurry changing bearing.  It would be hidden in the spindle when assembled now, so not easy to check. 

The rockauto  photos don’t show one, but it could be a generic photo and not an actual 2014 shaft. 

Either way he is buying a shaft assembly it looks like. Will have to pay closer attention next time; other front still original.

[5rebel9]

Lots of folks go by pictures in parts sites,sometimes they ARE MISLEADING as in this case. IF you go further in part description page of part in RA, they say TONE RING INCLUDED where applicable. Maybe I will take a few more minutes and check other sites like Autozone and Advanced Auto if further proof is required. 

   Noted that the OP is in my RUSTBELT area, but confused that he posted of working on a car 2 states away!

[khnitz]

1 hour ago, 5rebel9 said:

Noted that the OP is in my RUSTBELT area, but confused that he posted of working on a car 2 states away!

We moved from IL to MI 6yrs ago, but travel back to visit family often.  I'm usually pack tools to help with repairs while I'm in town.  This weekend's trip included this wheel speed sensor issue on my in-laws' Journey, replacing the front brake pads on my sister's Scion xB, and replacing a seatbelt latch on a friend's Escape to finish the repair of damage from an accident (before and after images below - we took care of the bulk of its repairs on a couple of earlier trips) ?

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by khnitz

[5rebel9]

Sure looks like you KNOW your calling! You're here doing the SAME"info searching" I do when certain "situations" crop up. That's what forums like these are all about!   

[5rebel9]

WAIT A MINUTE HERE NOW ....   ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU HAVE THE BEFORE AND AFTER PIC'S IN CORRECT ORDER????

   SORRY, I just could not RESIST poking in a little JESTING!        

[2late4u]

3 hours ago, 5rebel9 said:

Lots of folks go by pictures in parts sites,sometimes they ARE MISLEADING as in this case. IF you go further in part description page of part in RA, they say TONE RING INCLUDED where applicable. Maybe I will take a few more minutes and check other sites like Autozone and Advanced Auto if further proof is required. 

   Noted that the OP is in my RUSTBELT area, but confused that he posted of working on a car 2 states away!

actually i just went to o'reilly's close by my house and they had one for a fwd 2014 journey and they showed it to me and there is no visible tone ring being shown but it was listed for an abs vehicle, and the parts guy said they are built inside the metal casing,,, one thing i would point out tho is to look for one with the rubber boot that has about 5 ribs on it as a couple yrs ago i had to replace several cv axles on my daughter's mail vehicles and i was using advance auto at the time and the ones they had only a 4 rib rubber boot and for most people that might last them, but my daughter did a lot of tight turns with her caravan and the boots would rip or split, last one i went to oreillys  and that one never ripped or split.................BUT before replacing the cv axle i would contact your local dodge dealership and ask them where is the tone ring located, either the cv axle or the actual wheel bearing, i would hate to take a part store sales person to tell me where the tone ring is located as it could be located in either part,, good luck and will be wanting to hear the results on this repair

Edited September 4, 2022 by 2late4u

[khnitz]

58 minutes ago, 2late4u said:

actually i just went to o'reilly's close by my house and they had one for a fwd 2014 journey and they showed it to me and there is no visible tone ring being shown<snip>

one thing i would point out tho is to look for one with the rubber boot that has about 5 ribs on it

<snip> good luck and will be wanting to hear the results on this repair

Thanks for checking on that at O'Reilly's!

I had to think a moment on the "5 ribs" advice, but then I got it.  Yeah, I'll keep an eye out for that.  And I'll do a little more research on the tone ring before pulling the trigger on the replacement axle.  Definitely doesn't seem like it's part of the bearing/hub on the fronts, and looking through the sensor hole at the CV joint end while rotating the hub only showed a smooth surface...no timing "sprocket" teeth (like a gear) or holes (like a film reel).

I will post further updates, though it may be while as we don't have a trip planned back to IL for a couple of months.

[khnitz]

I'm trying to find PC SW that will let me export data from my Foxwell NT510, but no luck so far.  In the meantime, I manually plotted one of the data recordings I made.  Yesterday, I was able to get the speed of the Journey up over 5mph by coasting downhill in neutral - I wanted to see how the wheel speeds tracked at greater than the 5mph that the TCS was limiting the vehicle to when in drive.  BTW, once the speed when coasting had exceeded 20mph and I went back into drive the vehicle drove normally (but with the warnings lit).

 

Anyway, here's what the data looked like (my guess is that the log is at once-per-second or so.

 

So, I would say that somehow part of the LF tone wheel has deteriorated so that the wheel speed sensor is only able to partially count wheel speed during a rotation of the wheel.  The other 3 sensors are tracking together.

 

BTW, in previous replies, it was suggested to examine the vehicle wiring, as well.  The harness looks clean and un-chewed, with no obvious spots of wear or corrosion, either.  I would not say that the graphed results completely rule out a wiring issue also being a cause, but given that there were no sporadic readings when the rest of the sensors were measuring 0mph and that there are no codes for the sensor itself (just the code for the tone wheel due to the readings), I'm not inclined to think it's a wiring issue.

Edited September 5, 2022 by khnitz

[khnitz]

I continue to dig around for information on the exact location/structure of the tone wheel, and something I came across was a recall notice 15V-675.  The recall work was to add extra sealing to prevent water ingress to the ABS unit that could result in a failure.  A catastrophic failure from that water ingress would result in a C2200 fault code, and it definitely doesn't have that.  Also, I checked their VIN and the recall work was performed in 2015.

 

So, after confirming with their VIN, the Mopar PN for their FL CV axle is 68079565AB.  I'll be going with a Duralast 14293N as the replacement.  But, again, it will be a little bit before I am in IL again and can replace it.  While the axle is out, I'll make sure to clear any debris out of the inside of the hub where the wheel speed sensor pokes through, too.

[2late4u]

38 minutes ago, khnitz said:

I continue to dig around for information on the exact location/structure of the tone wheel, and something I came across was a recall notice 15V-675.  The recall work was to add extra sealing to prevent water ingress to the ABS unit that could result in a failure.  A catastrophic failure from that water ingress would result in a C2200 fault code, and it definitely doesn't have that.  Also, I checked their VIN and the recall work was performed in 2015.

 

So, after confirming with their VIN, the Mopar PN for their FL CV axle is 68079565AB.  I'll be going with a Duralast 14293N as the replacement.  But, again, it will be a little bit before I am in IL again and can replace it.  While the axle is out, I'll make sure to clear any debris out of the inside of the hub where the wheel speed sensor pokes through, too.

C2200 fault code, is what my journey has right now and the part is ordered thur the dealership under warranty as well, but wont be in stock till Jan of 2023 the recall on that wire connection was done as well on my journey back a few yrs ago, oh well.....

[khnitz]

On 9/7/2022 at 2:22 PM, 2late4u said:

C2200 fault code, is what my journey has right now and the part is ordered thur the dealership under warranty as well, but wont be in stock till Jan of 2023 the recall on that wire connection was done as well on my journey back a few yrs ago, oh well.....

Oof - at least it is being covered under warranty for you!  Are there any other steps they can take to prevent the same issue from happening with the new module?

[2late4u]

2 hours ago, khnitz said:

Oof - at least it is being covered under warranty for you!  Are there any other steps they can take to prevent the same issue from happening with the new module? as far as the warranty at  least i had purchased the lifetime warranty from dodge. Maybe they won't charge me my ded. (100)when they replace the abs module

but i dont think that will happen   LOL

 Recall Summary:

Chrysler (fca us LLC) is recalling certain model year 2012-2015 Dodge journey vehicles manufactured April 21, 2012, to April 14, 2015. In the affected vehicles, water may enter the wiring harness for the anti-lock brake system (abs) module and leak into the module, disabling the abs and/or the electronic stability control (esc) system.

 How to Fix:

Chrysler will notify owners, and dealers will seal the abs wiring harness to prevent water from entering and will replace the abs module and repair the headlamp and dash wiring harness, as necessary. These repairs will be performed free of charge. The recall began on December 21, 2015. Owners may contact Chrysler customer service at 1-800-853-1403. Chrysler's number for this recall is r61.