E85 in 2011 Journey. Worth it?

[zmttoxics]

I just realized the other day while filling up the new car that its actually a flex fuel engine (there is no sticker on the back like the Caravans). From my quick googling, it looks like E85 is a lot less efficient in these motors then 87 octane. The cost has be considerably low compared to 87 octane to make the switch worth it and also means more trips to the pump. On top of that, there are rumours of E85 causing corrosion and other stuff.

Obviously, they wouldn't do it if there was a chance it would kill the engine. But how efficient is the 2011 Pentastar engine on E85? Is it worth the extra trips? Thoughts?

[FleshWound]

Shell hi-test for me, always, it contains no ethanol. No Flex fuel for my 2010.

I'd put bigger injectors if I were gonna use E85 exclusively. and you'd have to plan out your route as it's not available everywhere.

but with the experts claiming $2.00/lt plus in the very near future, it is definately something to consider

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If this Middle East mess spreads to Saudi Arabia...1/5 of world's oil reserves........

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http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Saudi_Arabia/Oil.html

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[zmttoxics]

Shell hi-test for me, always, it contains no ethanol. No Flex fuel for my 2010.

I'd put bigger injectors if I were gonna use E85 exclusively. and you'd have to plan out your route as it's not available everywhere.

but with the experts claiming $2.00/lt plus in the very near future, it is definately something to consider

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this Middle East mess spreads to Saudi Arabia...1/5 of world's oil reserves........

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-10-16-28-21

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Saudi_Arabia/Oil.html

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.cf8ccfd0c8636e4a3df42d9b2e0ab4d1.2c1&show_article=1

I don't think the 2010s support flex fuel. The 2011 does have a v6 flex fuel engine and supports any combination of e85 and octane, so you can start your trip on e85 and refill with octane at any point. The gas cap is even yellow now and clearly labelled for both. So I don't suspect any engine work is required on the 2011.

[warbladejm]

typically with e85 you are going to get 25% less gas mileage so you just have to do a quick price comparison

this topic came up on another forum where the op stated gas was 3.95 and e85 was 2.75 so even with the mileage difference e85 was more economical

now if there was tuning available for the new 3.6 and you wanted to run pure e85 you could get it adjusted and gain back some of the mileage loss

most people say vehicles run better on e85 with it being 105 octane

[FleshWound]

I don't think the 2010s support flex fuel. The 2011 does have a v6 flex fuel engine and supports any combination of e85 and octane, so you can start your trip on e85 and refill with octane at any point. The gas cap is even yellow now and clearly labelled for both. So I don't suspect any engine work is required on the 2011.

i guess my first post didn't come off as I was intending. (my bad) I guess it was hypothetical because,

you're right about the 2010 not supporting the flex fuel, so I use the Premium Shell gas which has zero ethanol, personal preference, If they had zero ethanol in their mid-grade, I'd buy that for sure.

If i had the Pentastar engine and was thinking about using the E85 fuel. I would want to get max HP, and forget about the MPG, from the higher octane that the E85 offers, by changing to larger injectors (Maybe SRT4 injectors) and a bigger fuel rail, do some data logging and get a high performance tune, and I'd only use the E85.

But, there are no tools at our disposal, at this time, to datalog or tune the pentastar engine.

I wonder if the dyno numbers (283HP)and the fuel economy ratings (24-36MPG)for the new V6 was done using the same fuel????

oh yeah that MPG is from the Canadian site using the imperial gallon

Hope this post doesn't muddy up this discussion too too much

Cheers

Ron

[Doug D]

typically with e85 you are going to get 25% less gas mileage so you just have to do a quick price comparison

I think it's worse than 25%. Edmunds has a good writeup on E85 vs E10 using a Chevrolet Tahoe as the test vehicle. They made the same trip - once with E10 and once with E85. With that particular vehicle, it actually cost more to use E85 even though it was much cheaper - $3/gallon for E10 vs $2/gallon for E85. You don't really gain an economical advantage unless E85 is priced below 2/3 the price of E10. Otherwise, you're breaking even at best.

[UPMedic]

I know the 3.6L V6 is capable of running E85, but is the 2011 Journey set up for it?

My gas cap is black, and makes no mention of E85. No Flex Fuel logos or stickers anywhere.

[zmttoxics]

My gas cap is yellow and says Gasoline / Ethanol 85.

[UPMedic]

My gas cap is yellow and says Gasoline / Ethanol 85.

Huh....that's...interesting! The only thing my black cap says on it is make sure you put it back on tight.

I guess it really isn't a big deal to me. There's only one E85 station near me, and the prices probably wouldn't justify it's use anyway. My owner's manual states you can expect a 30% drop in mileage with E85, and it sure isn't 30% cheaper than 87 octane gas around here.

[2011mainmango]

anyone that is using ethanol, do you see a performance gain, or is it the same, i'd like to try it in the journey when we get it.

[MikeBorowski]

My cap is yellow. I will try E85 tomorrow. I am averaging about 21mpg with 89. We shall see...

[coolram62]

I think it's worse than 25%. Edmunds has a good writeup on E85 vs E10 using a Chevrolet Tahoe as the test vehicle. They made the same trip - once with E10 and once with E85. With that particular vehicle, it actually cost more to use E85 even though it was much cheaper - $3/gallon for E10 vs $2/gallon for E85. You don't really gain an economical advantage unless E85 is priced below 2/3 the price of E10. Otherwise, you're breaking even at best.

I had an Avalanche that was E85 capable. Chevrolet actually gave higher HP/TQ (+6/+10 if I remember right) ratings for the 5.3 if straight E85 was used given the 105 octane rating. This gives an idea the PCM adjusts timing and fuel delivery to compensate for the fuel used. But as stated you deal with a substantial drop in fuel economy. The Pentastar should have the same ability to adjust air/fuel ratio and timing depending on fuel used (but this is just my opinion). Given this I've been using mid grade ,like suggested for the 3.5HO, instead of regular in my 2011. Use of premium would probably be a waste unless there was tuning available to take advantage of it. Also the new fuel delivery systems are supposed to be designed to cope with the corrosive nature of E85 (no rubber in fuel lines ,o-rings etc...). In the US there is a goverment push for E15 to be a standard before 2020. And UPMedic I was under the impression ,as others, that all Pentastars were flex fuel. If you still have your Journey's window sticker is should be stated on there.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Is there a reason you guys are putting higher octane or premium fuel in your Journey when the owner's manual specifically recommends regular 87 fuel?

Also, I'm pretty sure that ALL gas in the USA and Canada has the 10% ethanol content as it is mandated by the feds. The biggest difference between regular and premium fuel is that premium has more detergent additives to clean your engine.

[coolram62]

Is there a reason you guys are putting higher octane or premium fuel in your Journey when the owner's manual specifically recommends regular 87 fuel?

Also, I'm pretty sure that ALL gas in the USA and Canada has the 10% ethanol content as it is mandated by the feds. The biggest difference between regular and premium fuel is that premium has more detergent additives to clean your engine.

I'm working off the theory of the PCM's ability to adjust air/fuel and ignition timing so that E85 can be used. There can't be one static table for regular and E85. If this were the case E85 would be even more of a waste than it already is. I'm using mid grade (89 octane) since premium would be a waste without additonal tuning along with the ability to data log.

In the southeastern US you can still find stations that advertise ethanol free though it's mostly premium (which my Z28 is happy about). As I stated the US EPA is pushing for a 15% ethanol content by 2020. On one hand there is a certain amount of practicality but for the most part I look at it like the clunker refunds - a way of pushing older cars (pre 1990 and I'm being generous) off the road.

[topofnewyork]

I see that you guys posted that the engine can handle e85 but my question is why not on the AWD. If I were to put e85 will it mess up the engine or is it that the engine can handle it and it will give less mpg? I would like to try it but I don't want to mess the engine up.

[bramfrank]

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I'm pretty sure that ALL gas in the USA and Canada has the 10% ethanol content as it is mandated by the feds. The biggest difference between regular and premium fuel is that premium has more detergent additives to clean your engine.

Nope.

In Quebec Esso doesn't add ethanol to any of it's products (yet). And most high octane gasoline has no ethanol. Ethanol itself is an excellent scouring agent, so no other additives are actually required once you are putting that crap into your tank.

On balance, ethanol is a huge rip-off and has negative ripple effects throughout the economy.

[generaltso]

I see that you guys posted that the engine can handle e85 but my question is why not on the AWD. If I were to put e85 will it mess up the engine or is it that the engine can handle it and it will give less mpg? I would like to try it but I don't want to mess the engine up.

Why the AWD Journey doesn't support E85 is anyone's guess since Chrysler hasn't made any comment about it. If your gas cap isn't yellow, DO NOT put E85 in your car. If anything does get messed up, it will not be covered under warranty.

[ChrisPollard]

Ethanol, on top of increasing food costs by using food crops for fuel, also gives poor fuel economy. It's not as efficient as good ol' gasoline. If I could avoid the 10% cut they put in our fuel, I would. To be worth burning, E85 would have to be significantly less expensive than regular fuel. But it isn't. It's only slightly less expensive, and not enough to make up for the loss in mileage. A failed experiment in alternatives.

[Doug D]

Is there a reason you guys are putting higher octane or premium fuel in your Journey when the owner's manual specifically recommends regular 87 fuel?

Also, I'm pretty sure that ALL gas in the USA and Canada has the 10% ethanol content as it is mandated by the feds. The biggest difference between regular and premium fuel is that premium has more detergent additives to clean your engine.

89 octane is the recommended fuel for the 3.5L V6 in the 2009 & 2010 Journey's. You can use 87, but hp will be less (not that you can notice it....).

[b1pig]

i tried to contact Shell directly through the "contact us" on their website. ofcourse, i got no response in reference to what (if any) of their fuels contained no ethanol. So far as I can tell from their site, ALL fuels contain ethanol. someone posted up the website pure-gas.org and i checked it. there are a couple of places in town which are supposed to have ethanol-free fuel. i'll have to test it. the aviation scene has a "test kit" for ethanol. its a marked fuel cup. you fill it to a line with fuel. add water to a specific line. as always, there will be a separation between the water and fuel. water "grows" then you have fuel containing ethanol. at some point, i'm gonna get one of the cups and test a couple of these stations... and this "myth" that Shell Premium contains no ethanol.

I think it does. I run premium in mine and my wife's motorcycles. The last time, hers sat, the fuel separated.

also. the "value"...

from my recent test of ethanol in our Journey:

we ran a tank of ethanol through the Journey and i have figured up the difference. basically, to get the same distance as "regular" gas (E10) with E85... it would cost us $18 more to travel 432 miles.

oh.

performance. i have to say, that once the computer had compensated for the change in fuel, there was a distinct improvement by seat-of-the-pants. the car moved with a great deal of authority....

Edited January 8, 2012 by b1pig

[Armendegga]

89 octane is the recommended fuel for the 3.5L V6 in the 2009 & 2010 Journey's. You can use 87, but hp will be less (not that you can notice it....).

Actually, according to the manual, it recommends regular 87 Octane and states that there is no benefit from using a higher grade.

[MikeBorowski]

Hey guys, I rarely post but read. I just wanted to say, I put a K&N panel filter in my Penastar Journey with E85 and WOW. It FEELS (note: FEELS) like I picked up 25HP. The acceleration response from just the K&N alone is noticeable. I picked up about 2MPG too. Worth the $45 IMO. I'm not some jackass, I understand the skepticism but truly, it feels great.

[b1pig]

i put mine in a week or so ago. we hardly drive, so we haven't noted anything of note. i just prefer the K&N so i can clean/service it when i change the oil. almost everything i own has one.

[Doug D]

Actually, according to the manual, it recommends regular 87 Octane and states that there is no benefit from using a higher grade.

From my 2010 owner's manual (pg 353):

FUEL REQUIREMENTS

2.4L Engine

All engines are designed to meet all emissions

regulations and provide excellent

fuel economy and performance when using

high-quality unleaded “regular” gasoline

having an octane rating of 87. The use

of premium gasoline is not recommended,

as it will not provide any benefit over regular gasoline in

these engines.

3.5L Engine

The 3.5L engine is designed to meet all

emissions regulations and provide satisfactory

fuel economy and performance when

using high-quality unleaded gasoline having

an octane range of 87 to 89. The manufacturer

recommends the use of 89 octane

for optimum performance. The use of premium gasoline

is not recommended, as it will not provide any benefit

over regular gasoline in these engines.

Light spark knock at low engine speeds is not harmful to

your engine. However, continued heavy spark knock at

high speeds can cause damage and immediate service is

required. Poor quality gasoline can cause problems such

as hard starting, stalling, and hesitations. If you experience

these symptoms, try another brand of gasoline

before considering service for the vehicle.

So let me rephrase - if you have the 2.4L engine then yes, 87 octane is the recommended grade of fuel. 89 octane is the recommended fuel for the 3.5L V6.

The 3.6L Pentastar may have different fuel requirements. I am not familiar with the fuel requirements of the 3.6L.

FWIW - there is negligible cost difference between 87 and 89 octane. In our area, the price difference is usually 10 cents per gallon. So for a 20 gallon fillup, 89 octane would only be $2 more. 89 octane is the recommended fuel grade in my Hemi-powered Ram. I use 89 in the Hemi. My last fillup was ~$55 with 89. 87 would have been $53. Big deal.

By premium, I assume Chrysler is referring to 91+ octane, not mid-grade.

And you do know most fueling stations do not have a underground tank of 89. 89 is a blend of 87 and 91 octane.

[AstralRT]

And you do know most fueling stations do not have a underground tank of 89. 89 is a blend of 87 and 91 octane.

I've been too many stations where there were three tanks in the ground. I assume three tanks would be three different octanes. Just an assumption on my part. There were no diesel at these stations.