Out of Date Map Message from my 2011 8.4N

[redtomatoman]

Or, do the right thing and buy the upgrade.

I just spent the $$ to upgrade the map in my 2011. Steep fee. While I agree with you about purchasing, I do notice that these companies have no problem bending the consumer over the barrel on a regular basis. Additionally, when I bought my 2011, the salesman told me that the map updates via the GPS automatically with no need to purchase future updates. Obviously, that was complete nonsense, but at the time I had no reason to doubt that guy. Anyway, here I am giving money to Garmin for map updates.

Peace.

[bramfrank]

I can see where a member may be banned in the near future.

[alexandru.paul.popa]

The only reason i wanted to share the update process, is because i find it ridiculous that for a 99$ standalone GPS unit we get free lifetime maps updates, however for a 35000$ car we get to "enjoy" the privilege of paying 150$, just saying

sorry if i offended anybody, and yes i do support the idea of paying for somebody else work (buying the official update CD) with the condition's that is not a monopoly and that its a fare price, and in this case its a monopoly and the price i think that everybody can agree that is not so "fare"

[bramfrank]

The only reason i wanted to share the update process, is because i find it ridiculous that for a 99$ standalone GPS unit we get free lifetime maps updates, however for a 35000$ car we get to "enjoy" the privilege of paying 150$, just saying

sorry if i offended anybody, and yes i do support the idea of paying for somebody else work (buying the official update CD) with the condition's that is not a monopoly and that its a fare price, and in this case its a monopoly and the price i think that everybody can agree that is not so "fare"

I have to presume that your DJ has every single option possible, because with every checkbox ticked the 'before discussion' price is $36,665.

It doesn't matter WHAT you think about the way a company prices it's products - that is up to them. If you don't like it you don't just steal the product.

To violate the copyright act; with a very specific exception (and that loophole is being closed as I write this) to copy proprietary media, to break or circumvent the digital locks on someone else's product constitutes theft. Period. To promote the concept likely has it's own set of legal consequences.

If you don't like the way Garmin does (or Chrysler or Navteq do) business, then buy from someone else. It isn't up to you to decide to help yourself to Garmin's licensed products just because you don't feel like paying the asking price.

Edited June 15, 2012 by bramfrank

[Lebowski]

Be careful with your words: it's copyright violation but it cannot be called theft.

If I take, e.g., your car without your consent, you're left without a car, that's theft.

If I copy a map, garmin still has the map to sell, that's a copyright violation.

That the law in some countries treats both things in the same manner (or worse, copyright violations deserve stiffer penalties than theft) it's just an artificial construction not grounded in reality.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Lebowski

[bramfrank]

If you avail yourself of someone else's property (in this case Intellectual Property, or 'IP') without the permission of it's owner then it IS theft.

Garmin does not have a monopoly on navigators, but even if they did it wouldn't make any difference - they don't even own the map data either, but license it from Navteq and incorporate the information into the maps that they sell. If you don't pay for a product, even if it doesn't actually cost them anything it is still stealing.

[AstralRT]

All copyright arguments aside, the map upgrade price is ridiculous. Just another way to milk us for more money. Sure, we can choose not to buy new maps or not to buy a Nav system altogether, but then we lose a feature and/or product we really enjoy. This holds true for many things in life we want but don't need, and companies know this.

[bramfrank]

I agree. but who says life is fair? We all have to make choices - and one choice was to buy the nav - another is that if 'we' want current maps on that navigator the price of keeping it current was available for the asking before signing on the dotted line.

If you didn't want to pay the price the alternative was do without altogether or go with a stand-alone navigator and to put lifetime maps on it if they weren't included .

Notwithstanding the preceeding, it is downright stupid to promote software piracy - beyond the ethical issues, the illegality of doing this is obvious.

[Lebowski]

If you avail yourself of someone else's property (in this case Intellectual Property, or 'IP') without the permission of it's owner then it IS theft.

You are playing with words: intellectual property doesn't resemble physical property at all, the difference I explained before (if I take physical property from you, you have it no more, if I copy intellectual property from you, you still have it, or, as Thomas Jefferson put it:“He who receives ideas from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine receives light without darkening me”)

It is just a legal construct with no root in reality, so, no, copyright violation is copyright violation, not theft, so, please refrain from calling thieves those that are just violating copyright.

Besides, copyright violation may be a legal offence in a country, just a civil offence in another and nothing at all in another one (e.g., where I live I can freely copy music for my personal use, while I cannot copy software).

BTW: I'm not promoting any behaviour (again, "piracy" is a loaded word that has nothing to do with the issue at hand), I'm just saying to be careful with the words one uses to describe things (e.g., "illegal copying software" is not "piracy", since usually there are no boats or guns involved).

[bramfrank]

It cost Naveq a LOT of money to collect this 'intellectual property' and they are entitled to revenue for organizing it and packaging it up for resale - this isn't a hook for fishing - It cost Garmin a lot of money to license Navteq's data and package it for delivery to THEIR clients. The OWN it and whether or not you steal the DVD or just copy it, using it without paying the people who did the work IS theft - it isn't a 'construct'. If you don't want to pay for the information, then collect it yourself and collate it and set it up for use in your device - but I'm sorry, but your views about non-physical assets does rob those who own it of revenue for their work.

Illegal copying of software IS piracy:

The copyright infringement of software (often referred to as software piracy) refers to several practices which involve the unauthorized copying of computer software.

[Lebowski]

Well, since you mentioned the wikipedia article:

Theft

Copyright holders frequently refer to copyright infringement as theft. In copyright law, infringement does not refer to theft of physical objects, but an instance where a person exercises one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder without authorization.^[6] Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property and that "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright... 'an infringer of the copyright.'" In the case of copyright infringement the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law is invaded, i.e. exclusive rights, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held.^[1]

It cost Naveq a LOT of money to collect this 'intellectual property' and they are entitled to revenue for organizing it and packaging it up for resale - this isn't a hook for fishing - It cost Garmin a lot of money to license Navteq's data and package it for delivery to THEIR clients. The OWN it and whether or not you steal the DVD or just copy it, using it without paying the people who did the work IS theft - it isn't a 'construct'.

See above the article you mentioned: it's copyright infringement, it's not theft.

If you don't want to pay for the information, then collect it yourself and collate it and set it up for use in your device

openstreetmap is doing just that, and they're doing a better job than atlas/navteq, now, where does garmin explain how to load openstreetmap's maps on their devices? Oh, wait, they don't, since they want to force you to buy their maps. That's extortion.

[drb227]

This pissing contest is getting a little out of hand. The simple fact is, not paying for the map upgrade is simply wrong in my view. Too many people think they should be entitled to too many things for free.

Garmin is not extorting anybody, that is foolish. They are a company and need to make money to stay in business. You can either buy their upgrade disk (regardless of what you think it should cost) or not.

I bought one and I feel it was expensive and I knew that when I ordered it. It's not something I will likely do again for a few years, given the cost. It's simply the way it is.

Why would Garmin explain how to load maps on their devices that they have no control over and there is no profit in it for them? Who does business like that??

[bramfrank]

If openstreetmaps have a product and have figured out how to load that product on to Garmin navigators, that's fair game - THEY own the product, THEY choose to give it away.

But using someone's paid-for property (as in unlocked maps that Garmin sells) without paying for it is (among other things) illegal in North America and most of the civilised world and whether you believe it or not, is morally wrong.

[Dodge Journey Guide]

This pissing contest is getting a little out of hand. The simple fact is, not paying for the map upgrade is simply wrong in my view. Too many people think they should be entitled to too many things for free.

Garmin is not extorting anybody, that is foolish. They are a company and need to make money to stay in business. You can either buy their upgrade disk (regardless of what you think it should cost) or not.

I bought one and I feel it was expensive and I knew that when I ordered it. It's not something I will likely do again for a few years, given the cost. It's simply the way it is.

Why would Garmin explain how to load maps on their devices that they have no control over and there is no profit in it for them? Who does business like that??

We agree with the above.

Please understand that you cannot post links or files on here, which point to or download illegal content, etc.

[Lebowski]

The simple fact is, not paying for the map upgrade is simply wrong in my view.

Never said otherwise, but it isn't theft.

Edit: BTW: I don't even have a garmin navigator, so I don't really care about the map upgrade. I just care about using the correct words for things, regardless of the (very effective as I can see) brainwashing by the copyright lobby.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Lebowski

[redtomatoman]

Garmin is not extorting anybody, that is foolish. They are a company and need to make money to stay in business. You can either buy their upgrade disk (regardless of what you think it should cost) or not.

I bought one and I feel it was expensive and I knew that when I ordered it. It's not something I will likely do again for a few years, given the cost. It's simply the way it is.

Agreed. I bought the upgrade and would not consider copying it illegally. It was expensive. The price is Navteq/Garmin's decision. I think its expensive, but I have no idea how much work is involved. My reference for my conclusion that the map upgrade was expensive is this: My phone uses google technology wherein the use of their maps and navigation is almost free (I have to pay for my phone and internet access which I would do anyway for a myriad of reasons) and the map is constantly upgraded. I don't have to do anything or worry about whether the map is up to date. I was told by a dodge sales rep that the maps in the 2011 Journey work this way. And I believed it. Not sure who is more ignorant, him or me.

Peace.