Jon snow Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 I hope someone can help. I have a 2009 journey r/t with about 97000 miles. A little over 2 months ago I decided to change my rotors. I installed cross drilled slotted rotors. After finishing I tried to build pressure by pressing the brakes. It went straight to the floor and being that I didn't open any lines I didn't think it was a bleeding situation. However afterwards I took it to my mechanic and he had my car for 2 months and couldn't figure it out. After replacing all calipers and hoses along with 7 different master cylinders a 2 boosters and new abs, it still goes to the floor. It was bleed multiple times by him and dodge. He decided to take it to dodge and get their opinion and they were just as confused. Just to be clear, everything has been bleed including the abs. Please help. I spent over 1700 to get my car back the same except at least I have all new parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty256 Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 that is a strange one . if dodge can not figure it and they used a scanner to bled the abs system I don't know .. dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 If it helps its a canadian vehicle dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty256 Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Maybe it's time to find a new mechanic ,,, two months is a long time to work on brakes and replace so many things ...brakes are one of the easiest to fix even with abs thrown in the picture. My only other thought would be the abs controller but if they used a scanner to bled the abs system it should be good. Also when you bleed are you sure you are getting all the air out and a solid stream of fluid ... Also might be the wrong master cylinder or booster or connection between them OhareFred and dhh3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Dodge said there is no air in the system. The majority of time we were waiting on parts since nothing was ever in stock. No aftermarket parts are in my car. I'm wondering if by it being canadian could the parts be slightly different. dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhareFred Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 I really doubt there is a difference North of the boarder in bake parts. Your dealer is in Canada, right? If they are getting the parts they should be correct. Im kinda stumped as well. Seems like everything you could try was done, my first thought was bleeding was not done correctly because of the abs but thats out... Lets get back to basics...pedal to floor could be 1: air, 2: broken line, 3: leaking fitting, 4: bad booster, 5: bad abs pump. Has anyone gone under the car to look for leaks? Cant think of anything else...... dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 When my car was on the lift my mechanic showed me that it was dry underneath. Bleeding was done by my mechanic and dodge several times throughout the 2 months. However I never heard him mention anything about the abs pump. Could a vacuum leak cause this? dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhareFred Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 I would think a vacuum leak would cause the pedal to be hard to push down. No power assist with no vacuum. I gotta tell you, I've been working on cars since I was 15 and I'm 54ish now and I have no answer for you! Gotta be something basic that everybody is overlooking.....The Dodge dealer HAD TO have bleed the ABS system/pump with a special tool, right? One that runs the ABS pump while you are turning the bleeder valves. .... Have they tried flushing the brake system with all new fluid? Maybe apiece of junk is blocking a small something or other. At this point what do you have to lose? dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty256 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 my bet would be the abs pump not being bled correctly . loss of vacume would be a hard pedal . sounds like they where just throwing parts at it . time to get back to basics . start at the right rear and bled the system the old fashion way with someone pumping the brakes and the bleed screw. I would ask your dodge dealer if the bled the abs pump with a scanner . you can not bled it anyother way because to have to active the solenoid's ... has to be something very simple you are overlooking . same here been working on my own cars since I was 16 and I am 58 and have never seen this problem ... silly question but did you bled the master cylinder before hooking everything up.. dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 All the bleeding was done by the mechanics. From what I was told they did bleed the master. I will say this though, when I bought the car about a year and a half ago I noticed (after I bought it) that there was a lot of rust underneath the car. I'm glad now that all the parts are new. Maybe it could be something clogged inside. They told me when they put pliers to it the pedal works perfectly. It doesn't drop to the floor when they do that. I don't quite understand what they mean by using pliers. Does that make sense to you? dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhareFred Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 In a word...no. No clue what they are talking about with the pliers... dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Let's say there is something clogged in a line. Can it be removed or would you have to replace the line? dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty256 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Let's say there is something clogged in a line. Can it be removed or would you have to replace the line? Flushing the line might clear it but depends on the line. If it's a rubber line most likely the inside is flaking and needs replaced... You have air in the system somewhere or a leak . No clues with the pliers either.... One word of advise ... Find a another person to look at this they are missing something simple ..there has to be either air in the system or a leak .. i still will bet they did not bleed the abs system correctly , you have to have the right scanner . dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtsr Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 In a word...no. No clue what they are talking about with the pliers... Probably points to the fact that they squeezed off a rubber portion of a brake line somewhere and the pedal acted normally. One would think any mechanic worth his salt could zero in after that. Lots of rust under the car - could be a vehicle from salt water flood and in itself is worrisome. dhh3 and jkeaton 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhh3 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 All you did was change the rotors. Removing the calipers can be done without disconnecting the brake lines. If the new rotors are thinner than the the original rotors, the calipers will never grab them;, thus the pedal going to the floor. Did anyone compare the width of the old rotors vs the new ones? OhareFred 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 They tried the old rotors with no success. But it is slightly thinner dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfurth Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 ABS bleed procedure ought to be: Bleed brakes per usual procedure. Computer-actuated bleed of ABS module using scan tool. Bleed brakes again to clear hydraulic lines of air. This is the order for a T&C/Grand Caravan, and they share almost the entire brake system. I replaced the calipers in my T&C (2010) on all four corners and didn't have to do anything more than a typical brake bleed (ABS module wasn't involved, so an ABS bleed wasn't required). I would be hesitant with a thinner rotor on the 2009 - thin rotors + 4,500 pound vehicles with already smaller pads and rotors = asking for trouble. That being said, a thinner rotor would only increase the amount of fluid necessary to get the caliper to press in on it (to a point). Once the pads are set, you'd would be fine (unless the rotors are paper thin, and then you have other problems). I agree with the sentiment that someone missed something somewhere - I've never had a brake pedal go to the floor that wasn't dealing with air in the lines (and I have yet to experience a leaking brake line). The bleed order does matter. Pliers on the flexible piece of the brake line (that connects directly to the calipers) would isolate the issue. If they pinched off the brake hoses near the calipers on all four wheels and got proper resistance against the pedal, that narrows down your issue real quick - it's 1 or more caliper causing the problem. Proper isolation troubleshooting at that point would be to remove one clamp at a time until the problem re-appears. That implies a defective caliper and it should be replaced. And then bled properly. dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty256 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 ABS bleed procedure ought to be: Bleed brakes per usual procedure. Computer-actuated bleed of ABS module using scan tool. Bleed brakes again to clear hydraulic lines of air. This is the order for a T&C/Grand Caravan, and they share almost the entire brake system. I replaced the calipers in my T&C (2010) on all four corners and didn't have to do anything more than a typical brake bleed (ABS module wasn't involved, so an ABS bleed wasn't required). I would be hesitant with a thinner rotor on the 2009 - thin rotors + 4,500 pound vehicles with already smaller pads and rotors = asking for trouble. That being said, a thinner rotor would only increase the amount of fluid necessary to get the caliper to press in on it (to a point). Once the pads are set, you'd would be fine (unless the rotors are paper thin, and then you have other problems). I agree with the sentiment that someone missed something somewhere - I've never had a brake pedal go to the floor that wasn't dealing with air in the lines (and I have yet to experience a leaking brake line). The bleed order does matter. Pliers on the flexible piece of the brake line (that connects directly to the calipers) would isolate the issue. If they pinched off the brake hoses near the calipers on all four wheels and got proper resistance against the pedal, that narrows down your issue real quick - it's 1 or more caliper causing the problem. Proper isolation troubleshooting at that point would be to remove one clamp at a time until the problem re-appears. That implies a defective caliper and it should be replaced. And then bled properly. this pretty much sums it up ... I am willing to bet your mech did not bleed the system the right way ... good luck and post back what it takes to fix it dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 I'm taking it somewhere else tomorrow and hopefully they can figure it out. I'll update with the outcome. Thanks for all the replies guys dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhh3 Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 This whole thread makes no sense to me. All the OP did was install new rotors, never disconnecting any brake lines. So, why the need for bleeding? I'm cornfused (Hoosier humor!) 2late4u 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted June 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 I know what you mean. I never had a problem like this before. If I didn't open any lines then why would I need to bleed it. dhh3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiceTrip Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Was this ever resolved? If so, what was the solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon snow Posted December 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2016 Unfortunately it was not resolved. I got rid of the journey and bought something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimar Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 Front brake hoses get pinched in the brackets that mount them to the struts. Pry the brackets open a little to relieve or replace the hoses if that doesn't work. You can push the piston in but it won't have enough pressure to push fluid back out so you get less pressure on a front and a rear caliper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nehvada Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 i bet my ass that they did not bleed the clutch. the clutch master cylinder ist fed also by the brake system with the same fluid. nobody here ever mentioned the clutch, so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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