HID lights in reflector housings- A reminder to some of you out there

[jkeaton]

 

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I'm copypasta-ing this from another forum. With the rash of "I'm getting HIDs for my car" or "how to put HIDs in my Journey" or whatever threads. I urge anyone/everyone here considering it or with friends that do it to give it a read.

Ok, another fun rant for everyone...well, maybe not everyone. Those of who you care about "doing things right" and research your modifications before installing them, I'm not looking at you. Yes, there are correct ways to retrofit HIDs into your car that came with reflector housings. If you have done this, thank you and good job. If you have OEM projectors and have put HIDs in, then you're fine as well. The ones I am looking at, again, are those who blindly throw parts at their cars without even the basic understanding as to what they are doing. Today's focus is lighting. With the introduction of H.I.D (high intensity discharge ) or "Xenon" lighting in automotive applications, drivers have been given a better and safer way to see at night....mostly. This types of lights started out as OEM options and have slowly (well, back then) trickled their way down to the average consumer for a low price. At first, to have Xenon lighting in a car that did not come with it required getting a hold of an OEM setup, which was (and still is) very expensive. As aftermarket manufacturers saw the demand for these kits, they flooded the market with them for every automotive bulb under the sun. While a benefit to some, it has been a glaring problem to many motorists. Far too often, owners who like to modify their cars have been like horny leg-humping dogs by sticking these lights in every hole they can think of...weather they belong there or not. Not only have the applications of many of these lights been wrong, manufacturers have even gone as far as to manipulate the technology of these light to produce some of the most annoying and unusable lights ever conceived.

Let's look at a few basics.

Reflector vs projector housings..in one simple picture-



What is a H.I.D/Xenon bulb anyway? Well, your standard halogen bulb that has been standard for decades is nothing different in design than your typical household light bulb. It works by passing energy over a small filament which in turn causes the filament to become super heated and produce light. We should all understand how this works. Like this-



In HID or Xenon lighting, a small arc of plasma is created by energy passing through various gases and elements in a sealed chamber. This arc produces the light you see..it's kind of like a small lightning bolt to put it in simple terms. It works like this-



Let's discuss the two types of light bulbs and the two types of light housings used on cars today.

Now for a general light, this really is no different other than overall light output. The HID is able to produce a brighter light with less energy. But when it comes to automotive applications, things change...a lot. Automotive lights are designed in a very specific manner in order to put light where you need it, and not put light where you don't, as in putting light on the road and not in oncoming driver's faces. The general standard for years has been a halogen bulb in a reflector housing. In this housing, bulbs have a shield built into them to help control light output. Think of it like walking though a dark room with a candle to light your way. Notice that when you do this, the glare from the candle hurts your ability to see what you are trying to light up. What do most people do? Well, instinctively most people put their hand between their eyes and the candle. This is the same concept on most halogen bulbs and is designed to only allow light into a specific part of the reflector housing. You can see it here as a little piece of metal next to the filament-



And this is the desired effect of all of this. The location of the filament and the shield are super critical in the design of a reflector, changing the location of the filament's location even a couple of millimeters will change every angle at which the light travels, ultimately letting light go in places it was not designed to. This is is also the exact same reason why your high-beams project light much higher and wider- because the high-beam filament is no shielded and placed in a location that causes the light to scatter in a different direction.



There are many cars with projector lenses that use halogen bulbs. But the bulbs used in the projector housings do not, I repeat, do not have a shield on them. This is because the way a projector housing works, the lens (and if applicable, the shield build into the housing) does all the focusing. In some projector setups, both high and low beam patterns are available and are controlled with a movable shield. Here is an example of what I am talking about-



..and this is how a projector housing works-




Now when it comes to HID lights, almost all of the cheap/regular kits for most all bulbs are unshielded. There are a few exceptions that have a shield operated by a solenoid, but generally speaking most, if not all of your average HID installs in reflector housings are done wrong.

You average HID bulb looks like this-



Notice the little bubble in the middle? That is where the arc is produced and where the light comes from. Notice the difference in the following picture of the location of the halogen filament vs. the location of the HID "filament". This is the root cause of why putting HIDs in reflectors is never a good idea-
 

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Upon changing the location of the actual light source, you get massive amounts of light scatter (glare). This is what is very bad and annoying to all other drivers on the road. You are essentially blinding them as if you were driving with your high-beams on. I've heard many people exclaim "but I can see so much better with my HIDs (in reflector housings)"...and this is only true because you are scattering light all over the place. Here are some examples of what I am talking about-

Halogen in reflector-

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Halogen in projector-


HID in reflector housing-

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Notice all the light scatter/glare that is up higher than the "cut off" line? That is bad...very bad. I could post up numerous examples of this all day long. Even while it "might not look so bad", it is bad. Aiming your headlights down won't help any either. All aiming your lights down will do is move the focus point down, but glare will still be emitted up and out. Oncoming drivers will see this. Most people might thing your brights are on too....even though they're not. Both of the car in the following picture are equipped with traditional halogen reflector housings..but one of them had improperly installed HID lights, can you tell which one is which?


 

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See how bad that is? Sadly, none of the people doing this actually care they are blinding other drivers...nor do they really listen to those who care to inform them politely.


Lastly, we have color. For whatever reason that I may never understand, people seem to love the blue/pink/purple lights too. They think it looks "cool" or that they can see better with it. In fact, no matter what the reasoning is, they are 100% dead wrong. HID lights, as many know, are offered in different "K" ratings. This is for Kelvin. The Kelvin range describes light at different frequencies. Here is a simple way to understand Kelvin (K) and light output-
 

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In reality, anything above 5K is really not any more helpful or useful to the human eye. In fact, the lower the Kelvin rating, the "better" it is for your eyes. Natural sun light is actually pretty yellow. Regualr halogen light is also on the yellow scale. The human eye likes this and is why we can see the colors we see. Notice with a blue or red light how everything looks a single color? This is the same for HID lights in the 8K+ range. Your eye does not like the frequency and takes much longer to adjust as well as a severe loss of detail when looking at something. This is actually why police lights are blue...because they're VERY attention getting and police want you to see their blue lights from as far away as possible...so you know they're there. Blue/purple/pink headlights are terrible for your eyes. I could actually give much more detailed information as to why, but I don't need to be that technical right now. Just know, and please understand why all of this is so bad.



TL;DR? Just read this:


If you put HIDs in your car and they don't look almost exactly like this-


Then you are doing it wrong and irritating everyone driving down the road at night.

If your lights looks like this..regardless of the HID in reflector housing...
 

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...you are a danger to everyone else on the road.

[Powerz69]

Nice!!!

Just wanted to add to this because this sentence can be wrong.

"If you have OEM projectors and have put HIDs in, then you're fine as well."

It should be, If you have OEM HID projectors you can change the color [Kelvin] of a HID bulb and be good as well.

BUT if you have OEM Halogen projectors that usually takes a HIR bulb You should not be installing a HID bulb into them! Doing so could cause even more glare to oncoming drivers. Just like the pictures of the HID bulb and the Halogen bulb difference, the same is true for projectors. A halogen projector is optimized for a Halogen bulb. Placing a HID bulb into a Halogen projector will give a different focal point causing light to leak above the cutoff shield. This type of glare can be very bad as the light leak is now projected at oncoming drivers causing a more intense glare.

 

I see this a lot more with the Dodge trucks that have the OEM Halogen projectors. Now there is a proper way to do this as well. It involves removing the Halogen projector usually out of the back of the headlight housing and replacing it with a OEM HID projector that will fit and bolt right up.   

 

[bramfrank]

Simplest answer:

 

The ONLY way to properly convert to HID from other technologies is to install a full projector setup to replace whatever light source may be in the vehicle. 

LED conversions typically suck.

HIRs work well when you aren't willing to do the mechanical work necessary for a proper technology conversion.  Note that they are 3000K lights, so you won't be getting that 'blue dazzle' that some seem to feel is a requirement.

If you can't do it properly, then your best bet is to not do it at all.

[Cody Chornobey Powley]

Let's hope people read this!!

[Adam H]

I went with 35W HID bulbs.  I'll do a separate write up. The distance of the light source from the base on the HID bulb perfectly matches that of the Halogen bulb.  As a result, the beam pattern is exactly the same, but due to the increase in lumens, the field of view is much improved, especially at the edges -sides and down the road.  Before picture on top.  Sorry no fogs in the second picture, but we're focusing on beam pattern anyway.  I used Kensun SDX HIDs with 'Anti-Flicker Warning Cancellers'  

 

I absolutely abhor the idea of resistors, tried them and they got so instantly hot they would have melted plastic underhood.  Why put efficient 35W bulbs in only to add an additional 50W draw that is just making heat and asking for a fire?

 

I also tried a relay harness when i was having difficulties, but that didn't help either.  When I used only the warning cancellers did the HIDs begin to function properly.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Adam H

[bramfrank]

Not sure what your photos are actually showing, though it seems like a high and low HID shot - for a proper comparison your need a before and after shot  . . . and if you do that you'll find that your light with proper filament bulbs is evenly distributed across the plane with a very sharp cutoff and no significant hot spots.

 

If you have more light 'at the edges' then the beam is not the same, and the photos show a fair amount of scatter above the cutoff in the photos - that 'at the edge' light and scatter is what blinds oncoming traffic - for the record, the plasma ball in a HID bulb is a lot larger than the light source in the filament bulbs, putting part of that source outside of the focal point of the reflector which is WHY there's all that scatter - yours may well be one of the better conversions, but it's still not friendly to oncoming traffic and is not street legal in North America..

Edited November 1, 2016 by bramfrank

[Adam H]

Sorry my post wasn't very clear.  The top picture is stock Halogen bulbs with fogs.  Bottom picture is HIDs only.  I left the fogs off to give a better picture of light scatter, or lack thereof.

 

There is light scatter and glare present with the stock bulbs.  You can see it just above the hot spot on both pictures.

 

The very rear part of the plasma ball is even with the Halogen filament.  The rest of the plasma ball is hidden behind the reflector.  These are well designed reflector headlights and well designed HIDs.  The potato quality ia due to cell phone camera, but it is demonstrative of the light pattern and that's the focus of this post.

 

There are many cars with poorly designed reflector housings not suitable for HIDs, it appears the Journey is not one of them.  Likewise, there are many poor HID kits, it seems Kensun is of good quality.  That is all.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Adam H

[bramfrank]

I'm not impressed.  Your stock bulbs have a MUCH more even distribution of light and you do have more bleed and scatter with the HIDs - look at that dark area below the cutoff with the HIDs and then the bleed that starts above it on the left side, which is perfectly set up to blind oncoming traffic (and, of course that scatter is going to be brighter with the higher luminance of the HIDs) though the pattern is, in general almost decent. 

 

That there is a cap only means that oncoming traffic isn't looking straight into the light source but ANY part of the plasma ball that is outside the focal point of the reflector will contribute to scatter and result in improperly aimed light which is why you have those hot spots and scatter that appears well above the reflector cutoff.

I went with HIRs - they are brighter than stock, but have no impact whatsoever on the pattern because the filament is in the same location and is the same size and those in the 9005 and 9006 bulbs.

Here are the low and high beam images from my phone for comparison - fogs are off, since they have nothing to do with the headlights:

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by bramfrank

[Adam H]

Thanks for your input bramfrank, you make good points.

 

My photos are not good representations of before and after.  They were taken on different nights at slightly different angles and the brightness of the hotspots causes the camera to adjust brightness levels as well. As such, it's difficult to get a good read on the beam pattern and actually brightness.  The scatter/glare is comparable to stock Halogens.  Furthermore, the Halogens pictured are aged headlights, which means any glare or scattering is probably less pronounced than a new bulb.

 

Is it possible that OEMs designed deep reflectors to account for variances in filament placement by different bulb manufacturers?

 

I would point out that that your low beam HIRs have a similar amount of glare above the hot spots that would directly impact oncoming drivers.  I think it's safe to assume that it is part of the Journey reflector design as opposed to any particular bulb.

 

Which HIRs are you running?  Philips HIR2 9012 H7?

 

I'll try to get an on road beam pattern picture.

[Adam H]

And I'll just throw it out there that the IIHS has rated the vast majority every new headlight tested as 'poor' or 'marginal.'

Edited November 3, 2016 by Adam H
clarity

[bramfrank]

On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎02 at 10:00 PM, Adam H said:

And I'll just throw it out there that the IIHS has rated the vast majority every new headlight tested as 'poor' or 'marginal.'

 

The IIHS doesn't set the rules and, to be honest I have zero issues with the factory lighting (and I drive unlit country roads at night), though I figured that for the $75 it cost I might as well up the light output with the HIRs.

 

On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎02 at 9:58 PM, Adam H said:

Is it possible that OEMs designed deep reflectors to account for variances in filament placement by different bulb manufacturers?

 

I would point out that that your low beam HIRs have a similar amount of glare above the hot spots that would directly impact oncoming drivers.  I think it's safe to assume that it is part of the Journey reflector design as opposed to any particular bulb.

 

Which HIRs are you running?  Philips HIR2 9012 H7?

 

First answer is that no, they don't, because there is very little variance with the 9005/9006 bulbs.  Precision placement of the filament is a key component of the bulb spec.

 

As to the amount of 'glare', be aware that the absolute amplitude of any glare you see in the photos is a lot lower than what appears in yours because the cameras stop down the image to capture reasonable light levels, which is why I wrote that any scatter from your bulbs are brighter than any from mine.  In other words, the photos look the same, but the aperture of my lens was wider than yours, so what you see in my shots is actually less bright than in yours.

I got mine from candlepowerinc and honestly have no idea which brand they supplied.  I replaced all four with HIR1s and HIR2s

Edited January 22, 2017 by bramfrank

[Adam H]

http://www.lumileds.com/products/automotive-oem-lamps/xenon

 

"The xenon 12V D5S is the most compact, most efficient and lightest alternative for carmakers to differentiate and enrich their high-volume compact vehicles. It allows carmakers to offer a xenon lighting solution based on the existing halogen system architecture. A D5S module fits into a majority of halogen headlight units without much additional effort. "

 

Food for thought.  Ran across these HIDs, and while they probably don't meed NHTSA spec, they are designed to be plug and play with factory halogen reflector housings.